I agree with the general consensus that such a high-level Aegis can be developed and cast. Does an Aegis need to penetrate? If so, mounting up ~95 penetration might indeed be difficult, even with a Communion. I suppose means of boosting the casting-penetration should be considered; adding Potency, and spell mastery in Penetration.
I agree that magi are too powerful, but am fine with archangels getting stats. Things are actually arranged so that magi can't really defeat the big-guys. The big Magic beings are eternal things in a Platonic realm that a wizard will go into Twilight just for trying to visit, and magi can only affect their Aspects. The big Divine beings are beyond the Lunar Sphere - the "Might" of Mary is only the Might with which she affects the world, and archangels send "mirrors" of themselves (and can send an infinity of those...). Magi can still take on big Faerie things (at least if they go to Arcadia), but then again it isn't clear that they really do since another faerie - or is it the same one? - can immediately take their place. Magi can apparently permanently take down a demon by reducing its Might Score to zero, but I'd suggest neutralizing this option for the nine Electors (which aren't given stats, just Might...) at least.
I like the "fighting with Michael" angle of Mythic.
And I agree the Fir Tree King kind of lacks a focus as a faerie, but within RoPF I'd place him as a highly-cognizant faerie that embodies all sorts of stories about fear and dark woods.
I am on the other camp For me "fighting with michael" breaks the suspension of disbelief by a large margin.
In my ME, a magus should be able to take on a dragon, but only after A LOT of years of research (and preliminary adventures) and at great danger to himself, probably dying in the process and having his LEGENDARY status spread by the lone surviving grog that was there nearby when the final cataclismic encounter between the 2 mighty foes ended in a blinding fireworks of raw magic power killing them both and sending the cavern crashing down. IMS the dragon of the pyrenees is not to be regarded as a potential familiar or hunting game for your average Sunday afternoon. Taking down a dragon is a lifetime goal, and with no guarantee of success. Michael and the Virgin are just there to be revered.
For me ArM3 was better in this sense, since magi were way less powerful. At least in the way we played them around here.
Giving Michael stats is good in that I allows for humbris in a magus. When a magus challenges the heavens themselves because he belives himself to be the equal of the Lord, then that can be a good story (the conclution tends to be forgone, since the Lord in onmi-potent, but maybe the Lord desires to give the magus time to return to the fold?)
The aegis doesn't (according to RAW) need to penetrate - and inventing a 20 magnitude spell is easier than you'd think. Remember that many Bonisagi use fostering to use apprentices more effectivly, and the bonus they get from them can easily get into 10/apprentice. And once someone has developed it, a casting tablet can be made. In most sagas I've experienced that the biggest problem with such a high aegis is the vis requirements. This might have something to do with playing low-vis/fast sagas.
As for the might 50 dragon, he will need his smarts more than his might, as I've seen too many streaks of 1's on casting rolls - usually followed by similar streaks on the damage rolls... ("million to 1 chances occur 9/10 times")
Intellegent monsters should have a more intresting story than just go kill it, and for real challenge - use numbers.
You're right, this anomaly was spotted back around when the RoP:Magic book was in development (in 2006), and it had been intended to issue errata paring these Might scores back somewhat. For whatever reason, these errata did not make it onto the website, but hopefully this will be rectified soon... Thanks for bringing this to attention!
By the way, the reason for the excessive Might scores, as you correctly surmise, was that GotF was one of the first 5th edition books, and was written at roughly the same time as ArM5. Thus, the new 5th edition scale of Might scores had not really been established - these were more like 4th edition numbers. There were a couple of other small holdovers from 4th edition, as I recall, such as a couple of errant refs. to Larta magi (which have since been errata'd).
Of course, for those that prefer the higher numbers, feel free to stick with them!
Although GotF predates RoP: Faerie, I don't think there are any problems with the division between Faerie and Magic - it was written with knowledge of the new 5th edition take on the Realms.
As written, the King Fir still seems Faerie to me, being related to stories about the Black Forest and interacting with humans in various unpleasant ways, even if not written in the terminology of RoP: Faerie. There is another Black Forest spirit which is Magic, however.
But archangels angels are infinitely dividable and they have intelligence scores based upon divine revelation rather than reason so they can go above +5. If an archangel always has one of its might 100 copy in heaven I don't see a way for any character to beat it. you can just destroy one of its bodies.
Te game has an all powerful divine entity. I would be quite disappointed if the servants of God were actually invulnerable too rather than just nigh invulnerable. The stats in RoP Divine for archangels make the setting feel much more believable to me than a vague statement saying that they are beyond the power of mere mortals. The stats show me that and they're about a million tomes more descriptive of the power of the divine.
You're right, this anomaly was spotted back around when the RoP:Magic book was in development (in 2006), and it had been intended to issue errata paring these Might scores back somewhat. For whatever reason, these errata did not make it onto the website, but hopefully this will be rectified soon... Thanks for bringing this to attention!
By the way, the reason for the excessive Might scores, as you correctly surmise, was that GotF was one of the first 5th edition books, and was written at roughly the same time as ArM5. Thus, the new 5th edition scale of Might scores had not really been established - these were more like 4th edition numbers.
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I'd be very much against this. The numbers in GotF are, as Xavi pointed out, more reflective of the power of magi in the game. I think that having lower numbers makes a real disconnect between the mechanics and the setting.
No, fighting and losing would certainly match my expectations HOwever, I know my troupe can design a way to defeat one of the bodies of Michael. And this is what breaks the system for me. It is not an everyday's job, but it is feasible. As I said, I prefer magi to be powerful, buit not so powerful that have to put forward a Might 150 creature if I want it to be a combat challenge.
If you have might 50 or 60, 3 pts for major virtue: immunity to might stripping spells is a minor thing. This is what usually does a lot of the killing
It's not so much the Archangels that are an issue from my perspective. I'd be surprised to see Michael beaten. The concern is that other supposedly cosmic entities like the Midgard Serpent are within reach and that otherwise cool entities like the librarian dragon of the pyranees turn out to be downright wimpy compared to the Magi.
I completely disagree with Erik Tyrrell on this one. For a number of reasons.
The whole Ars Magica 5th ed. line is fairly consistent about supernatural might. Might 75 means the most powerful faerie gods (the "average" pagan deity is a mere 50), the most powerful rulers of hell beyond Lucifer, the most powerful Kosmokrators (say, Time itself - theoi cap at 50). To avoid inconsistencies, one should either par down the Forest Spirits or simply change the rest of the line. The first option seems the easiest.
If we look at published characters, even Archmage Philippus Niger, Protector of Durenmar, could not reliably cast an Aegis protecting against level 90 creatures even if it were a PeVi effect (his best Technique/Form combination), even with a dozen other wizards supporting him in a Wizard's communion, unless the total is boosted with extra vis, which can be quite dangerous to repeat year after year. Philippus Niger is also fairly consistent with other Ars Magica characters we have seen published, and is built according to the rulebook. And remember, Durenmar has kept King Fir at bay for many, many years. Assuming that it always had an Archmage rank, Rego Vim specialist as a resident throughout the last century stretches belief, at least for me.
Now it is true that, in most cases, a player can look at characters, books, magical items etc. in the Ars Magica setting and say: I could make a PC who could browbeat that Tremere Archmage in certamen! I could make a PC capable of writing books better than the best books currently available to the Order! Etc. etc. But I see this as a feature, not a bug. A character with communication +5, the Strong Teacher virtue and an affinity in Ignem, who really concentrates on improving his Ignem score, can easily write the best Summa on Ignem that the Order has seen so far before being a century old. This is both believable (the vast majority of wizards do not obsess about writing the best Ignem summa, nor do they possess the same talent pool) and good for game play, as it allows for even relatively young PCs to really shine as the "Order's best" in one specific endeavor.
My current House Rule is that Durenmar's Aegis is a monumental level 60 (the most powerful in the Order), cast with a penetration between 55 and 65 by the Durenmar's protector (I am slightly editing Philippus Niger for this) acting in communion with half a dozen senior members of Durenmar. This keeps out King Fir (Faerie Might 50, the "average" for a pagan deity - who gets a +3 bonus from the Aura), but not by such a large margin.
They should be lower. We got most of the way towards errata'ing them in 2006, but the changes don't seem to have made it into the errata file. I'll try to get it done soon.
The problem came up because work started on GotF before ArM5 was finished; it was originally going to be an ArM4 book. Thus, there were a few holdovers that got missed, like the Might levels.
Now, Might 50 or so would be more in line with the rest of the setting, granted. But less in line with magi power-level.What we're all suggesting is effectively that Might needs to be increased overall. A simple solution is to indeed change the Might of Forests to circa 50, but change MR to be Might x 2. My preferred solution is to cut Arts by half, effectively (turning them into Difficult Arts), with similar results in these aspects (and a greater difficulty of casting the Level 75 spells that are supposed to be so impressive).
For me "fighting with michael" breaks the suspension of disbelief by a large margin.
