I noticed that some of the mights of the forest spirits from Guardians of the Forest are really, really, really high, all the way up to Magic Might 80 and Faerie Might 90!!! These seem to be quite a bit beyond what the guidelines in Realms of Power: Magic and Realms of Power: Faerie would suggest. Now, I understand that Guardians of the Forest is one of the earliest books in the line, but shouldn't these Might scores be scaled down a little? If anything, Durenmar's Aegis holding a(n nagry) being with Faerie Might 90 in check stretches believability a little, at least for me.
Beings with might of 50+ tend to be beyond the most powerful covenants Aegis to hold at bey. This does not mean they should not exist, but in most cases these beings have better things to do than kill mages in their beds. These gods would use lesser servants to go out into the world and cause havoc.
Wizard's communion to cast durenmar's aegis.
Actually, given the might of the magi of the order, the power of the GotF spirits is MUCH more sensible than that in the other supplements, not the other way around. Abuse of arcane connections (if you can't find an arcane connection to a forest spirit you do not deservr to have supernatural powers) and wizard communion can blast a forest spirit quite easily anyway. Even a single magus with arcane connections can do that if he is an archmage. As pointe dout repeatedly in the boards, as written, Archangel Michael (unless he is acting on behalf of God) is no match for a group of young magi that know they will be facing him and have a season or so to prepare. The virgin mary is also quite a feasible target for hermetic rape. The problem IMO is that THERE ARE STATS FOR MARY instead of a default of "she kicks your ass if you are naughty" approach, but that is another matter.
Might of 90 is perfectly normal when you look at the power levels under these criteria.
Should it be able to hold it in check? I really REALLY dont think so.
But of course, i prefer to have stuff walking around that magi cant simply do the bad old "i killz it with my battleships" thing on.
What's the point? the aegis doesn't use penetration, only might to calculate if it works or not...
If 5 magi help another to cast a level 100 aegis they will each be casting a level 20 spell. Only one of them will have had to actually learn the level 100 spell (from a lab text, probably). So the point is that the might 90 dude will not be able to enter the aegis, as usual.....
Quite a stapple feature of domus magnas (magnae?), I would say... Sometimes you do not need to penetrate with a spell, but simply be able to cast it
Indeed, but getting your hands on such a lab text would not be easy, as well as learning it.
I would assume durenmar has a few copies of REALLY high level aegis spells. It is the Great Library after all! Most PCs will never even dream about having their hand son such a sdepll, but the dudes at duiremar are cooler than they are, after all
For added fun, you can cast that level 100 spell via casting tablet... and botch it in the aura 6 (7?) of durenmar
I've notice the power level mismatch too. It's a minor blemish on an otherwise wonderful tribunal supplement.
The two issues are consistency and appropriateness. On a level of consistency, the Forest spirits have much higher mights than the RoP books suggest they should. As per RoP:M, the Midgard Serpent has a 75 might. If this is true, a 90 might forest lord stretches believablity.
Whether high or low might is appropriate will vary from saga to saga. Even the AM writers seem to have different attitudes as to how powerful Magi are. The problem is that there is no guide for players to help them structure either high powered or low powered settings. Pity the poor novice storyteller who decides a dragon or a duke of hell with a 40 might is an epic foe for his campaign, only to be confronted with players who take a focus in multispelled vim magics.
My own subjective sense is that Magi have gotten overly powerful. The default setting seem to be one of plentiful books to learn Arts from and lab texts to study spells from, even up to the level 100 Aegis spell mentioned here. Combine that with the uber-laboratories from Covenants, plentiful access to focus virtues at character creation, and little tricks like multicast, and pretty soon you do need Forest level spirits to provide foes that can't be crushed with magical battleships.
Still, you have to achieve a Lab Total of 100 to learn it, what not every Magus can do. And there's the first invention of the spell itself which would require some... time
"Sodales, I Boredus of Bonisagus anounce to you that I, in the past 15 years of endless toil with my apprentice and familiar in our highly specialized lab, have developed a 20th magnitude Aegis of the Hearth. I intend to donate a copy of such mighty shield to Durenmar, and will offer a text to any covenant that will pay me XXX pawns of vis".
Clapping and recognition ensures, as well as sniggers from less academic magi. House recognition also follows, and he earns or increases a reputation as a mighty and extremely boring vim magus. The epithome of a Bonisagus' carrer
I have a Terram expert (bonisagus) in one campaign that invented a level 70 spell in 2 seasons and that was without experimentation. Lab total of 105 (with focus, pussient, magic theory of 12, similiar spell bonus of 10, etc). She is 60 years out of apprenticeship. This is without heavy lab specialization which could have gotten it to 110-115, without help (other than her familiar) and in a level 3 aura. With an optimized lab and advanced apprentice,Durenmar's aura and a focus in Vim rather than Terram, she could have easily managed to create the spell in a couple years (5-6 seasons +2 for required teaching apprentice). Experimentation would have added 6+1d10 to the total perhaps cutting off another season or two.
This is just a mage 60 years out of apprenticeship. Think of what Bonisagus, Trianoma or even a mage 100 years out of apprenticeship with high longevity potion could do.
Inventing the spell isn't the issue as getting casting total to cast it (casting total doesn't have lab specialization, familiar and apprentice help, similiar spell bonus, inventive genius). My maga above had 105 lab total but only a 68 casting total (it was only level 70 spell after all). That is what a wizard's communion is about or casting tablet. Still considering that it is Durenmar, I could easily see them managing a 100 aegis. (-50 to all casting for visiting mages though is a good way to keep the peace during tribunal and grand tribunal)
I suspect the Midgard Serpent is under powered because I can easily see might of some things of one of the oldest and most powerful forests being in the 80-90 range
Direwolf, you might have misunderstood me - the book explicitly says that this Big Baddie wants to destroy Durenmar, and that the Aegis of Durenmar keeps it out (and, indeed, there's a cool story hook revolving about this). And I agree with you, Durenmar's Aegis should not be able to hold something with such might in check.
Thus, it seems to me that either we change the "official" Might of the baddie, or we change the "official" story of its conflict with Durenmar. Since the story is cool, I'd be inclined to change the Might.
I think there are two problems here, even if you accept that the magi at Durenmar know 180+ levels, total, of Wizard's communion, and that one of them knows the mighty level 90 Aegis spell (casting from tablet is not something you want to do year after year, especially with such a big spell and in a large communion...). I'd say I accept it - Durenmar has 15 magi, and one of them is explicitly its "Protector" - knowing the Mega Aegis might be a requisite for the title.
The first problem is that Wizard's communion effectively lowers the level of the spell, it does not boost the casting total. So, if you assume all 15 magi are involved in the casting, the effective level is 6, meaning that, to penetrate the Baddie's Might, one needs a penetration total of at least 87 > 90 + 7/2 (the Faerie gets half the Aura as a bonus, too). Without arcane connections or extra vis that requires a really serious specialist in Rego Vim, which I am not so sure Durenmar has constantly had access to over the last century. I mean, consider Philippus Niger, an archmagus. He could not reliably cast with such a penetration even in his best Art+Form combination (PeVi) since his penetration total is 38(Pe)+20(Vi)+2(Sta)+9(Penetration, including specialty)+7 (Aura)+3(Artes Liberales)+ 4(Philosophiae)+(2 Booming voice and Wild gestures) + die roll. On a roll of 1 or less, he fails to penetrate (ok, perhaps with the right talisman attunements ... but you get my point).
Using extra vis is dangerous (not to mention expensive). And as far as I can tell, you can't use arcane connections to boost Aegis penetration, like you can't with Wards. Even if you could, you'd have to a) know of the enmity of the Baddie and b) acquire one such connection. If you do have one such connection, and you know the Baddie hates you (and your penetration beats its resistance), then why risk waiting - attack it!
King Fir from Schwarzwald is a Faerie with 90 Might. Regarding RoP:F - what kind of story does it tell?
Shouldn't we treat it more like Magic Spirit now?
When will an Archangel not be acting on behalf of God? (Other than Lucifer, I guess)
I am sure some grognards from the berserklist could tell you for sure. There were some examples about this a few years ago IIRC. In any case you do not need stats for the virgin mary and archangel michael in game terms. They simply are. OInce you put stats to them they become creatures that have a definite "power level" and that the characters can comparwe to. I find the fact that I can build a guy able to take on the stats of archangel michael quite a failure of the system. I should not be able to even think about matching myself with an archangel. The fact that I can disappointed me when it came to ROP:D
Why not? I think it depends on your definition of "Mythic", as to whether this is appropriate or not.
From some perspectives, if your characters can't think about destroying angels, then it isn't "Mythic". For example, "Lucifier's rebellion against God" is a "Myth", whereas battling some faerie will-o-the-wisp is just a "story". Many players would see "Mythic" as implying that a grand scale is involved.
The line tries to provide both for troupes that think "battling minor faeries" is "Mythic" and those that think "storming heaven" is "Mythic".
Get a ReVi specialist, have him learn leadership, hire 5 magic theory specialist magi to assist the main Magi in developing the lvl 100 spell. Not SIMPLE or cheap no. But perfectly doable.
Ah... Lol, i hadnt seen the part about wanting to destroy Durenmar. Then of course it makes perfect sense that they CAN put up such a defence.
Keep the might, as noted in the thread, Durenmar probably CAN provide such a massive Aegis.