The ring of slumber

[dwightemarsh]

So, suppose you have no Muto or Mentem Vis, but a little bit of Rego Vis and as much Vim vis as you care to make. You want to create magic ring that could cast “The Call to Slumber” either at voice range, which is standard, or touch range, so it could be activated silently.

So, an item with two distinct magical effects would be a greater enchanted item. First a touch range version of “The Call to Slumber” at level 5, with +10 levels for unlimited uses. In this case, the creator can easily reach a ReMe Lab total of 40, and doesn’t want to spend more than two pawns of Rego vis on this effect. So, some additional levels for penetration or such are possible, not many levels.

Then the second effect is Level 5 “The Wizards Reach, Mentem” also with +10 for unlimited uses and since he can use as much Vim vis as he wants, and has a MuVi lab total of around 50, has about +10 in bonuses he can add in.

At first, I was thinking of putting in a link, so that one effect was triggered by the others, but I didn’t see how it would work. The Call to Slumber should only sometimes trigger The Wizards Reach, and The Wizards Reach would only be one way to trigger The Call to Slumber effect. It seemed easier to make the triggering of the Call to Slumber effect a physical action and the triggering of The Wizards Reach a verbal action, defining the range at which the new spell would go.

So, first question. Is it possible to have an effect with more than one trigger? For instance, the wand casts a fireball if gestured one way and the person shouts “Hobberfopperreberhopper!” and the effect is also triggered if he gestured another way and shouts “Hosea!”

Second question. I sort of have the idea that the penetration of the Wizards Reach spell needs to match the penetration of the Call to Slumber spell, but I can’t remember why I think that. Does anyone have a reference, or is my mind playing tricks on me?

[ulf]

1. This would in most cases be up to your troupe. Myself, I'd suggest giving a level modifier for each extra trigger - maybe around 3 levels? (btw - this is NOT cannon).

2. I think that only the penetration of the primary effect matters, but serf's parma.

Btw - Wouldn't it be easier to just trade a little vim vis for some mentem vis?

[Mark_Shirley]

@dwightemarsh

So, first question. Is it possible to have an effect with more than one trigger? For instance, the wand casts a fireball if gestured one way and the person shouts “Hobberfopperreberhopper!” and the effect is also triggered if he gestured another way and shouts “Hosea!”

There is a canon example of this very thing in Magi of Hermes. Persephone has made the Signet of Hallam with four enchantments. Three of them are triggered by saying "vir Hallamus" (changing the face, voice, and clothes of the wearer), and the same three, plus a fourth are triggered by saying "mulier Hallamae" (also changes the sex of the wearer). This means that the ring can be used by both men and women to take the shape of Lord Hallam. Note that the effects take place in three (or four) consecutive rounds, rather than all at once.

Mark

[The_Fixer]

Great!!! I'm happy to have an official answer to that.

But this begs the question. As I understand it, you give the order, and the item "casts" the spells, one/round, normal. But then, you should be able to cast spells on your own on those subsequent rounds

[Kang]

Is it possible to add mu vim effects into items without a mystery?

[dwightemarsh]

I checked my books. MuVi spells have to penetrate the penetration of the original spell when the casters are not cooperating. Presumably the effects are cooperating. On the other hand, the effect is supposed to be 5 greater than the spell, so it should be a L10 Wizards Reach, Mentem.

As for why not trade for some more Mentem vis, there are sometimes advantages to having a single item that has duel uses rather than two items. I am mostly trying to figure out how Muto Vis spells work in items, and this was the best example of a boostable effect where the higher level was just not strictly superior to the lesser effect. If I had framed the example as a talisman it might have been more obvious what the advantage would be.

I will have to look the example from Magi of Hermes. That each effect takes its own round to resolve is problematic, my understanding is that MuVi spells can’t affect spells once they have resolved. Having the ring take two rounds to affect someone at range is probably a fatal flaw.

As for having MuVi spells in an item, the main rulebook says that MuVi spells can only affect spells that are in that item. I didn’t see anything else limiting MuVi spells in items, so I don’t see why I would need a mystery.

[Mark_Shirley]

@dwightemarsh

As for why not trade for some more Mentem vis, there are sometimes advantages to having a single item that has duel uses rather than two items. I am mostly trying to figure out how Muto Vis spells work in items, and this was the best example of a boostable effect where the higher level was just not strictly superior to the lesser effect. If I had framed the example as a talisman it might have been more obvious what the advantage would be.

I will have to look the example from Magi of Hermes. That each effect takes its own round to resolve is problematic, my understanding is that MuVi spells can’t affect spells once they have resolved. Having the ring take two rounds to affect someone at range is probably a fatal flaw.

Again, turning to Magi of Hermes, Hugh Hostis has an enchantment in his talisman that increases the Penetration of other effects in his talisman. It is stated that it takes an extra round to trigger the enhanced effect, but not which order the effects go off in - presumably the metamagic is first, which then affects the subsequent power (D: Mom lasts up to a round). Note that this isn't an efficient way of getting Penetration in an item, but it describes the sort of work-around that someone might use.
Whereas Hugh could have just invested a new enchantment in his talisman with a higher Penetration, this one has the advantage of working on any effects in the talisman of appropriate level, so is more efficient overall.

@dwightemarsh

As for having MuVi spells in an item, the main rulebook says that MuVi spells can only affect spells that are in that item. I didn’t see anything else limiting MuVi spells in items, so I don’t see why I would need a mystery.

No Mystery required.

Cheers

Mark

[Vespasian]

@Mark Shirley

Again, turning to Magi of Hermes, Hugh Hostis has an enchantment in his talisman that increases the Penetration of other effects in his talisman. It is stated that it takes an extra round to trigger the enhanced effect, but not which order the effects go off in - presumably the metamagic is first, which then affects the subsequent power (D: Mom lasts up to a round). Note that this isn't an efficient way of getting Penetration in an item, but it describes the sort of work-around that someone might use.
Whereas Hugh could have just invested a new enchantment in his talisman with a higher Penetration, this one has the advantage of working on any effects in the talisman of appropriate level, so is more efficient overall.

It's very nice indeed, but are we sure that it's actually fully within the rules?
MuVi usually boosts (or decrease or change) a parameter, but penetration isn't a parameter, so I think that particular effect is off. Never mind that it's beeen published.

[Mark_Shirley]

@Vespasian

@Mark Shirley

Again, turning to Magi of Hermes, Hugh Hostis has an enchantment in his talisman that increases the Penetration of other effects in his talisman. It is stated that it takes an extra round to trigger the enhanced effect, but not which order the effects go off in - presumably the metamagic is first, which then affects the subsequent power (D: Mom lasts up to a round). Note that this isn't an efficient way of getting Penetration in an item, but it describes the sort of work-around that someone might use.
Whereas Hugh could have just invested a new enchantment in his talisman with a higher Penetration, this one has the advantage of working on any effects in the talisman of appropriate level, so is more efficient overall.

It's very nice indeed, but are we sure that it's actually fully within the rules?
MuVi usually boosts (or decrease or change) a parameter, but penetration isn't a parameter, so I think that particular effect is off. Never mind that it's beeen published.

It's within the rules because it has been published (which includes scrutiny from the editor, other authors, and multiple groups of playtesters). MuVi does not only change spell parameters; the wording of the guideline is to superficially / significantly / totally change a spell. In MoH, it specifies this is a total change, which according to ArM5 page 159 can be a change in power of up to two magnitudes. Thus a +10 to Penetration is perfectly acceptable.

Mark