Thebes Tribunal longevity rituals: how good are they?

I never called it a Ritual Spell. I called it a Hermetic Ritual, which it is. It is a Ritual which falls under Hermetic Magic Theory. The same as a Folk Witch LR is a Folk Witch Ritual which falls under Folk Witch Magic Theory.

You are throwing out worthless straw man arguments and attributing things to me that I did not say. What you have to prove is that a non-Magi can cast it, not make nit picky points.

The box in TMRE page 42 means that if you can't use Vis (capped by arts which for non-gifted is capped at zero) then you can't rebrew.

bob

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You're making an inference here. It doesn't say "If you have the lab text for a LR, you don't need to have the necessary Lab Total to duplicate the effect." It says "You don't need to spend a season"

There's still nothing here that removes the need to meet the qualifications. Yes, in principle the magus can re-brew the LR from the lab text. This quote could merely assume that by the time the magus needs to re-brew the LR, that his lab total is sufficient (which may well be the case, given the LR is good 'for centuries (in principle)'.

It certainly looks like the authors of TMRE are making the same assumptions, but that's not the same as clearly stating "you don't need to match the lab total of a LR to use it to re-brew the LR". Given that this is one of the core guiding principles of lab texts, that's kind of important!

As for 'assumed to get the lab text', that's entirely a negotiation thing. The LR specialist won't want to hand out un-clear text, as it would allow that person to decode his lab texts, but having a text clarified takes time and resources. So it could be rolled into the price of the LR specialist in the first place, or the LR specialist could just say "Come back if it fails, I'll re-brew for X pawns".

Vis transfer explicitly requires a laboratory but only takes a single day.

If you use a lab text to make a copy of it, do you require a high enough Lab Total?

Do you require a high lab total to use the lab text as a footrest?

You know what I mean by "use" - it's to reproduce the effect the lab text describes. Which is what someone re-brewing the LR is doing.

Look, we can agree to disagree, and you're probably the most versed person on the forum on the rules, but I honestly expected better of you than throwing that as an argument.

But that isn't consistent with other lab texts at all, is it? When you use a lab text for Aegis of the Hearth, is the result that you cast the spell or that you develop the spell? As a general rule, a lab text never lets you reproduce the effect the lab text describes; it lets you go through the process of preparing something to reproduce the effect the lab text describes. Someone rebrewing it is quite obviously not going through the entire process. This is why I'm not actually sure I do know what you mean by "use" because you seem to be alternating between "use" being performing the ritual (more akin to a casting tablet) and "use" being going through the lab process described.

I know it was rough, but I honestly feel that's what you've been throwing at us this whole time. You insist on using the rules for how a lab text lets you work in the lab and then switching up what it does. So I was hoping a similar reply the other way would be more eye-opening.

No it isn't. But that's how rules work - general case, then specific exceptions. Using the lab text for a LR has a specific exception - you don't have to spend the season. You still use the vis - and then there's the other exception, that your limits are Arts not Magic Theory, but that's where the exceptions end and we're forced to make assumptions.

Does it require a laboratory? Does it require a lab total? It doesn't say, so we're back to referencing the general case rules. General case says you need a lab total, which means you need a lab. Or do you need a lab, but no lab total (like vis transfer)?

I honestly think it's a hole in the rules. If the last paragraph of the Laboratory Texts section is meant to be used in isolation - so the only thing a Lab Text for a LR allows you to do is reproduce it (sans Lab Total) without taking a season, what about the section on charged devices?

Can you take a lab text for a level 70 charged item, and make Lab Total/5 charges regardless of the fact that the magi only has a Lab Total of 50? I wouldn't think so, I think you'd need to have your lab total exceed the level of the lab text. But if you read it in isolation the same way as for LRs, the magus' lab total is only relevant to how many charges they get. This would make lab texts for charged items really, really useful to young magi.

But Lab Texts for enchanted items, and spells, already say that you need to equal or exceed their lab total to use them...

It says nothing of the sort on LR.
I guess we can put that in the Errata thread, to be clarified.

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Right, that's why the paragraphs shouldn't be read in isolation.

Here are my two issues:

  1. There used to be a lot of controversy about whether renewing a Longevity Ritual was a lab activity limited by Magic Theory or more like doing a Ritual spell, limited by Arts for exactly the reasons you're looking at. After all that controversy Atlas went and specifically put a box into HMRE to show which side of it is the canonical interpretation. Notice how they explicitly state the original creation is a lab activity and repeatedly state each piece addressed in the rebrewing is as if casting a ritual. And now we're being told they didn't address every little detail perfectly so it clearly must be the opposite side of the argument from the side they wrote?

  2. If it explicitly does not follow the rules for a seasonal lab activity, why is it so necessary that it follow the rules for a seasonal lab activity?

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Longevity Rituals (p. 101): Add the following sentences to the final paragraph of this section. "A Longevity Ritual performed for someone else also fails when the subject suffers from an aging crisis. If the subject is a magus and has access to the Laboratory Text, he may perform the ritual himself. (Vis usage is limited by the magus's Arts, as for a spell, which may make it impossible.) As the magus was present for the original creation of the ritual, and quite possibly assisting in it, he understands the shorthand. A subject who is not a Hermetic magus may not repeat the ritual. Any magus with access to the Laboratory Text may do this, but a magus who was not involved in the initial creation needs an accessible Laboratory Text."

Writing Laboratory Texts (p. 102): Add the following paragraph at the end of the section. "Any magus (or apprentice) who assisted in a particular Laboratory Activity understands the Laboratory Texts produced for that activity without needing to translate them, and may make generally accessible copies. This also applies to a magus who is the subject of a Longevity Ritual created by another magus, even if he does not assist. Assistants do not, however, create Laboratory Texts."

Is this clear enough?

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I believe that covers all the concerns discussed, yes. Thank you for your time and effort.

That works for me and actually adds some clarity to areas which were not even brought up in this thread.

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Does this also apply to assistants with the Failed Apprentice Virtue?

Revising:

Writing Laboratory Texts (p. 102): Add the following paragraph at the end of the section. "Any person who assisted in a particular Laboratory Activity, adding their Intelligence + Magic Theory to the Lab Total, understands the Laboratory Texts produced for that activity without needing to translate them, and may make generally accessible copies. This also applies to a magus who is the subject of a Longevity Ritual created by another magus, even if he does not assist. Assistants do not, however, create Laboratory Texts."

So, no.

Hmmm... After re-reading the "Help in the Laboratory" section and re-discovering that only people with The Gift can assist magi in the lab in a meaningful way, I retract my question. The confusion arose from coming back to the game after several years combined with the sentence, "You may learn Magic Theory and serve a magus as a laboratory assistant," in the Virtue's description.

My apologies.

Erratum! But I've noticed it here, so it doesn't need to go in the other thread.

Oh: it should probably be stated that the LR's Lab Total is its Level of Effect for purposes of translating the lab text, given that at least one use case for a translated lab text is explicitly mentioned here:

What else could it be? This is a serious question. There is a potential problem with drawing attention to something behaving in the standard way, because it can make people think that other things are exceptions. However, if there is an obvious alternative choice, it can be sensible to do so (as for wards needing to Penetrate).

Mmm. I guess nothing, actually. You make a good point. Assuming literally the only possibility is a safe assumption, yes.

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