Things that are rubbish

Ceremonial magic is useful in all kinds of ways. The Jerbiton who lives in a city (Divine Aura) might need to cast many of his spells that way. Now, it's entirely true that it is useless in combat, but I don't believe that's the purpose of the mastery ability. Also, keep in mind that certain spells, such as The Ambulaltory Laboratory, which has been corrected to level 50 in Errata and has a number of casting requisites, could derive a fair bit of benefit from this. The Leap of Homecoming, if you enforce requisites would also benefit, because 2.5 hours of "travel" time is much preferable to 2.5 months of travel time for a magus, and he could take some more things with him.
Also, certain things can cut down on casting time...

One man's rubbish is another man's treasure.

There are three advantages to it -- and some disadvantages, but I'll focus on the former.

  1. You are effectively getting Flexible Formulaic Magic.
  2. By researching an appropriate spell for a whole Form, you are effectively getting fatiguing spontaneous magic for that Form with a good possibility of avoiding fatigue and all botch dice. This is true even if you would normally be seriously deficient as Spontaneous magic.
  3. If you have a Magical Focus with Spirits, its applicability suddenly become that much broader.

Oh, I don't deny that it's useful in the slightest; there are many instances where it is. I would just argue that it's not needed for game balance (that bonus is small and requires lots and lots of XP to acquire), it makes no sense in terms of the nature of Hermetic Magic and the practicalities thereof, and that it is thus best jettisoned and people just allowed to cast spells ceremonially if they so desire. The idea that you can take advantage of the ascent of Mars to enhance your Spontaneous SetMundaneOnFire spell but not your Pilum of Fire is just ... daft. Admittedly that's a useless example for anyone save a grandstanding nutjob but since the Order is full of those anyway, I'll keep it.

As for the certain things ... I have to confess to not liking those rules as written. They place great emphasis on the size and secular value of the items in question and none on the mystical attributes or values. Nice idea, poor execution to my mind.

That same SetMundaneOnFire spell cast spontaneously with ceremonial methods takes the same 15 minutes per magnitude as a Pilum of Fire cast with ceremonial spell mastery. One could argue that all ceremonial magic is to use your word, daft. Especially for spontaneous effects, since the bonus from Artes Liberales or Philosophae is divided by 5 or 2. So, I don't understand your comparison, to be honest. Ceremonial spells, by definition are not combat spells, as you say, it takes too long for them to be useful in combat. Some spells might be cast with ceremonial methods to buff a character before combat, though...

My argument is, essentially, this: Ceremonial casting should be possible for all spells, regardless of their nature, and mandatory for Rituals. It makes no sense to me that Ceremonial casting be possible for Spontaneous magic by default and required for a Ritual but require a Mastery for a Formulaic spell which is invented in the same time and manner as the Ritual.. My argument is that the bonus is so small, so situational and so hard to acquire that requiring extra effort (a season's study at the minimum per spell) to achieve it is daft, and actively hurts the game by removing a thematically satisfying activity for Magi for no good reason. Yes, it's a small thing, but it niggles.

I like the idea of mastery, though. For Ceremonial Casting and all others, although I do have a problem with multiple casting and other abilities being determined by the overall score, whereas quick casting and precise casting have to be taken multiple times. There is an inconsistency there that requires some house ruling.
I will say, that Ceremonial casting is possible for all spells, it just requires the mastery ability, which is as little as 5 xp away. That's not a huge investment of XP. And I have a couple of characters who can derive substantial bonuses from Ceremonial casting (+10 or more) due to high Artes Liberales and Philosophae Scores. One of whom is a Bonisagus with a monster LT who has several spells he is unable to cast reliably any other way. Also, going back to the Jerbiton in the Divine aura, this may be the only way to overcome the standard Divine Aura of 3, which is a -9 to the CT.

I will point out that you started ragging on Ceremonial casting, describing all the methods you found it to be worthless, and then made a vague statement that you bin it as an HR by default. So, I really had no idea what you meant or how you used Ceremonial mastery in your saga. That's now become clearer to me, it's just part of all casting options, which is fine. I would suggest, to achieve some kind of parity with still and quiet casting that you consider retaining Ceremonial mastery options, and perhaps add a bonus for those who use it.

My main gripes are the following:

Stamina is way too useful (see my houserule about different abilities for different techniques)
Vulgar alchemy is something everyone should be able to do (your work can be voided by a new supplement, you are just formalising something the writers have not yet thought of)
Mercurian magic needs something (the drawbacks are about as strong as the bonusses, and then still you lose a major magic virtue)

Rubbish is too strong a word.

In Bibracte, for Mercurian, I turned the stick into a carrot. Mercurians get bonuses to ceremonial casting. Further, I treat all of their ritual spells to have a default, but unlisted Stalwart Mastery, so they only lose short term fatigue. They turn into ritual casting machines, but then how often do you need a ritual casting machine? :smiley:

5XP per spell is not a small investment to be able to do something you can explicitly already do for Spontaneous magic and which is explicitly part of Hermetic Magic Theory - to my mind it should never be something extra. The fact that your casting times go through the ceiling and the bonus is only really useful for magi who plan ahead is both more than enough of a cost and a justification for inclusion to my mind.

And yes, the difference between the rules for Penetration and, say, Finesse are odd. The use of Mastery Score rather than just the plain +1 for Finesse etc is also a common HR in games I've played.

I agree I did not phrase it clearly initially, and for that I apologise. As for retaining it ... the Still and Quiet mastery options offset penalties, and so I'd be quite happy with such a Mastery decreasing the casting times required, for instance, though probably not by more than one step.

I would also add that JL allows the characters with the Mercurian virtue to cast Spontaneous spells which was my biggest complaint about the virtue. In his game, it is now a major virtue worth the price. It is not that in the RAW.

Yes, that is a major amendment

Let's say you're bad at spontaneous magic (Mercurian Magic, Weak Spontaneous Magic, etc.), then you can use this to make up for that weakness.

Let's say you want to do a lot in a Dominion aura, then you can summon spirits with long duration and walk into it with them. Your penetration will still be bad, but you'll have dealt with the spell casting penalty.

Let's say you want to use Wizards' Communion yourself. Get a few spirits to do this and make sure the duration is long enough (Diameter should do).

There are lots of other clever ways to use it. It's a fantastic Virtue to have for certain magi, but certainly not for all.

Chris

Let's say you're bad at spontaneous magic (Mercurian Magic, Weak Spontaneous Magic, etc.), then you can use this to make up for that weakness.

Let's say you want to do a lot in a Dominion aura, then you can summon spirits with long duration and walk into it with them. Your penetration will still be bad, but you'll have dealt with the spell casting penalty.

Let's say you want to use Wizards' Communion yourself. Get a few spirits to do this and make sure the duration is long enough (Diameter should do).

There are lots of other clever ways to use it. It's a fantastic Virtue to have for certain magi, but certainly not for all.

Chris

who that this is going to be a fun test of my voice recognition.

This is also 1 of my favorite topics smiley

so here goes. I wouldn't use the word rubbish but prefer sub optimal.secondary insight is pretty sub out the mall. They are better ways to get free experience points. Let's see: um HoMedics to your Gopen parentheses that doesn't work at all close friend(hermetic theurgy) seems very very cool, but is not worth optimizing around even with a major focus and spirits. It just isn't worth it. If you want flexible for me Lake magic, take it. If you want good spontaneous Patrick take that.if you want a bunch of spirits to do magic on your behalf, you are better off becoming a rego them specialist and learning a single battery of spells as well as a few spirit names. This is cheaper and more flexible.spirit familiar are really awesome

Most of the astrology virtues are not worth bothering West, except for having a major or minor focus taken from the list of astrologically oriented f*** I. These are completely awesome, as them completely completely awesome.my favorites are any of the houses, eat of which covers a territory much larger than ordinary major focus yes it is only a minor. But the others are dot dot dot sub optimal. Yes I've read threads about of the bison liberal arts how to get good lab bonuses, but all this is very expensive and carry the risk of box dice. There are better ways 2 game lab bonuses.

Wrote and numerology and hermetic architecture are atmospheric but there are better things to do.

nature lore is not at all sub optimal, but then again it might be! The issue with nature lar is that the rules are written from a storyteller perspective, with vague mechanicsthatprobably make a virtual totally totally awesome, but a story guys can decide that river to does nothing at all.

Boulder alchemy is a big waste of time.

as for virtues that grant immortality, 2 kinds of wizards benefit immensely from thisbecause their advancement is not really about experience points at all. A berfitius can do quite nicely simply bite fabricating more and more and more items. Yes, his own abilities don't vans, but he has and ever increasing arsenal of cool stuff. A jerbiton who is happy with what he knows, and who is confident that culture is simply going downhill so why bother loading the newest most vulgar trend, can quite happily hold his salon and do his thing forever.there are other kinds of with you can benefit from this, but generally this is about leaving the saga with hey perfect ending. Of course, bjornaer have a built in exit strategy.

So, I could keep going, because many things are sub optimal, but I already said that Google Voice Recognition is really good at figuring out directions and things like that, but is not very good with dealing with our is magicka. the most incomprehensible butter and his have been slightly edited.

Anyway,

Can

This "translation" amused me. :smiley:
Flexible for me lake magic, FTW. I think I'd like to try that virtue. Maybe if I can join House Berfitius, is that their House Virtue? :smiley: I admire your dedication to Ars Magica!!

Read the above post......mad laughter awoken my napping wife!!

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Alas, it must be terribly annoying to have some silly software jumble your words so badly, Ovarwa -- culminating in changing your name from Ken to Can :frowning: Still, all the points get through, so it's sufficiently effective. And there are some changes that are pure AI genius, like:

:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
I'm considering using that as a signature!

That said, I agree with you on all but one point. I think that Hermetic Theurgy can be really worth it; I say this when playing a magus who has it. It's just a Minor Virtue. The Spontaneous part can be extremely nice (our magi tend to be paranoid about spell botches and warping). It's a Virtue that enhances a Magical Focus in Spirits greatly. The Flexible Formulaic part can also be useful, particularly for spells that don't require high penetration or speed of casting but that you may want to tweak. True, Flexible Formulaic Magic is better in this regard, because spell-spirits are slow and penetration is a serious problem, but Flexible Formulaic Magic is a Major Virtue and does nothing else. And if what you want is penetration, try to cast a non-spirit spell with the aid of a few spirit-Communions!

Now, I do agree that Rego Vim summoning + true names can be a better way for a theurgist to acquire with relatively little effort a vast and flexible array of powers. But that's just because summoning + true names is really good, not because theurgy is half bad. And there's one very, very important thing to keep in mind when summoning: the summoned spirit has a mind, and goals of its own. It may be just our storyguide, but...

I am NOT saying that is a virtue is useless. But, even though it can be made to work, I don't believe it is optimal. It is better, certainly, if you have a major focus with spirits, but it is not worth getting that focus in order to optimize this purchase. Conversely, if I already have the major focus, I am already willing to deal with spirits in a big way, and also deal with whatever consequences the story guide wants to encumber such dealings with.

A story guide can really screw with you: not only does the spell not work if someone else is already calling on the same spirit, but the spell becomes completely worthless if someone else destroys the spirit. This can be done by summoning it I and destroying it, or using it for an inch and mentor binding or something like that, or even simply as a defense in the round after you cast a spell but before you tell the spirit what to do. Nasty stuff. You also don't get out of having to potentially deal with stress roll to cast a spell.

Unless your saga has very little the,it is probably more attractive to choose a spirit talisman, and for flavor purposes simply describe the the expenditure as the stuff needs to bind a spirit. Then you never had a stressful. You also game other advantages.

I really really want to like hermetic see your G, but it isn't optimal. Rubbish? No. I could see taking it. However, the major virtue that allows you to add to your score is pretty dubious. I forgot the name of that 1, words of power? Something like that.

Anyway,

Can

Names of Power affects only Theurgic spells.
The expansion (Major virtue) that makes it work with all spells is Invocaion Magic.

Names of power I suppose qualifies for this thread. Although I really like it when combined with the other virtues, the fact is, it does nothing on its own. The only advantage to having just that is that you can begin working to discover useful names before you get Invocation or theurgy.