Third party product talk (was: How many people who buy 5DE will also buy third party material.)

Games Discussion Ars Magica
42

A ramble from a guy trapped in bed for a week:

My costs for MEM1 were USD692

The following are all-time sale figures in US dollars, net the vendor's take. Patreon's fee is estimated at 10% for ease. These numbers do not account for currency conversion fees, tax, or payout fees from PayPal.

Drivethru
56 sales - $218
Itch
17 sales - $118
Patreon
10 sales - $50

So that's $386, plus the pseudo-subscription that 35 people get because all paid Patreons received a copy. We can sort of think of those as $6 presales so that's $190ish net).

Sales figures were higher in the first two months than the first two weeks of this month, so the issue has come off peak and is in its (hopefully long) tail. I think it may pick up little bumps of activity whenever I do new material.

In terms of the numbers I gave in my May post (220+patreons as true break even, 143+patreons) as "I paid my income tax to authors instead" break even there are issues. 220 is literally cash out meeting cash in, but I can see I've not given myself a tax break there for the platform fees. I've just treated them as a dead cost. I've done the same on the 143+patreons.
where I can offset the remaining costs of MEM1 entirely onto other writing income from last financial year (I'm Australian, hence COVID in July and a tax year that ends on 30 June). I knew that potential was there going into this for this one issue because I received two lump sums for writing last FY (Thanks Atlas and Shewstone! Buy their stuff! Not a paid ad! Likely a result of being unfit to operate heavy machinery!").

Thanks for asking this question because you made me realise I'd missed something obvious. All of my accounting on this assumed it was a one off product because the two big windfalls were in a single financial year and wouldn't be repeated, so I had this limited time to use the trick to move some of my income tax payment for them into the author community through an expense.
The thing is, a company I'm under NDA to has paid me some money -this- financial year. I'd not calculated in the value of a loss I could carry forward to this year because I didn't assume there'd be income to set it against. I'll tell you closer to Halloween, when my tax filing is due, how much that moves the numbers, but it certainly seems to move them down.

The irritating thing is that the best way to sell more MEM1 is to do a themed issue of MEM2 that pulls in people beyond Ars core audience with a cool idea. Like, if I said "OK, our theme is pirates and we're doing doing a covenant in Libertalia" that'd probably work. Would it let new authors polish their craft as well as a miscellaneous issue? I'm not sure.

So, at the moment, eyeballing this through a haze of brain fog and flu medication, it's not -yet- a go. There's still a loss of about USD120+some fees just on purely cash terms.

That being said someone has sent me an article and I'm going to look at at it once my brain works again because I can tell they've put a lot of heart and skill into it, and their fundamental idea is good. That's not to say I'm saying MEM2 is happening, just that it's something I want to happen and that seems closer to happening than when I started replying because I hadn't factored in carrying forward the expenses. It'd still need to find a way to cost a lot less, sell substantially more, or be held up as a loss lead on profits from other writing, which is too complicated for my brain on Long Term Fatigue levels.

Added later for completeness, assumptions as above. Both offered as Pay What You Want. Does not include roughly 35 Patreon copies which are effectively paid for by a monthly subscription. I'm just saying you got a lot for a buck a month last year, gang.

Mythic Venice:
Patreon 16 sales - USD62
Itch: 16 sales - USD82
Drivethru: 2056* sales - USD210
Includes backers of ArM5DE, but does not include the fee from Atlas to me, hence odd ratio.

AMM1
Patreon: Nil
Itch 3 sales - USD13
Drivethru 382 sales - USD 256

There's probably some lesson to be drawn from comparing the AMM1 and MEM1 numbers, and PWYW against pricing to demand worth but it's beyond me for now.

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43

I'm still brain-fogged, but I'll be formally opening submissions for issue 2 sometime this weekend I imagine. I've been offered a couple of lovely pieces and I have an idea of my own.

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44

Good to read that. Is there a topic then for issue 2?

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45

Good to see, really think MEM has legs, just needs a wide audience.

46

Thank you very much for this, I'd have missed Mythic Europe Magazine #1 otherwise :sob:
(and TBH, having been scammed recently, I had a moment of panic when I received a mail telling me I had paid 6USD to Roll20 :cold_sweat:)

47

I'm not really a legacy buyer, but nostalgia does play a part. I've never actually played the game, but I've been aware of (and fascinated by) it since I bought the 1st edition rulebook at an Endgames in Portland, Oregon as a teen. I read a lot of RPGs, and nothing has ever been quite like Ars Magica, so my interest abides.

I received a copy of Mythic Venice free as included in my backing of the Definitive Edition, but I've also since bought copies of Mythic Europe #1 and the Ars Magica monsters book (for which I paid $5), along with whatever else was available (Mythic Judaism, Peripheral Code #1-3, etc)

I won't buy just anything, but I'm not that discriminating... as long as it appears some passion/work was put into it and the subject matter remotely interests me, I'm probably gonna buy your Ars Magica book. (as a side note, human nature notwithstanding, it bugs me that so many people don't even throw a buck the creators' way for a PWYW book; if it's worth downloading and reading, it's worth at least that)

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48

Hi everyone.

Finally having some time to reply to this thread. Our experience with publishing 3rd party material has been great so far:

  • 307 backers of Serenissima Obscura have also ordered the PDF version of ā€œThe Ars Magica Guideā€. These are 49% of all backers of our campaign!
  • 215 of those also ordered the print version, which made us reach the Ars Magica community goal ā€“ an offset print for this book.
  • Since then, we only had 3 orders in our pre-order store. (I really donā€™t have time to promote it.) But all 3 are Ars Magica backers.

In addition to backing our campaign, the Ars Magica community is extremely supportive of Discord. I get great ideas concerning the specifics of our conversion and have two people helping me ā€œofficiallyā€ with the mechanics: Ben McFarland and Sobek.

I am so glad, that we are doing this!

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49

Thanks to the black Friday sales, A Malady of Madness has officially gone copper on DriveThru, meaning its sold a whole 51 copies! Which doesnā€™t sound like much, but its pretty good - Iā€™ve got much older stuff which hasnā€™t got there yet, despite being on the market for three times as long (which I guess is telling me that it wasnā€™t the greatest thing to invest effort in, but you write what youā€™re inspired to writeā€¦)

Financially, its now made me US$199.08, US$0.033 a word, or US$12.06/hour. Still below NZ minimum wage, but itā€™ll get there. Probably in another three months or soā€¦

I expect things to pay off over time, with a target of (in this case) ~150 copies to fully earn out at US$0.10 a word. So the first year is basically a third of the way there, and thatā€™s pretty good.

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50

IdiotSavantā€™s post has reminded me to bring people up to date:

So far

Mythic Venice: 2196 copies (including copies for ArMDE Kickstarter. Earnings (not gross sale and not including the fee Atlas paid me to use this as a reward in the Kickstarter. Pre tax) Drivethru $239.63 itch.io gross sales $93.50

Ars Magica Monsters 419 copies. Earnings (not gross sale Pre tax. Does not include Patreons.) Drivethru $295.25. Itch.io gross sales $21

Mythic Europe Magazine issue 1 78 copies, same caveats as above: Drivethru $304.20. Itch.com gross sales $142.

In news:

Iā€™m working on Ars Magica Monsters 2 which I hope to have out around Christmas, and I hope to have Mythic Europe Magazine #2 out in March / April 2026. Iā€™ve been working on some paid writing for a different company (non-disclosure) and using that to pay some contributors to MEM2 and scope out some original art, so that has slowed these down, but money just makes things easier, you know? Ars Magica Monsters 3 has a pretty firm plan, because originally AMM2 was going to have 100 monsters, like AMM1, but my free layout software prefers smaller files, so Iā€™ve split it in two. If it looks like MEM is going to be an annual from here on, then the logical place for AMM volumes is six months on from that, but thatā€™s October when RPG sites are just wrecked for content, so late next year maybe?

The Cheshire book bubbles away in the background. No fixed shape yet.

The temptation to overcommit and announce some big project next year is quite strong, but I am resisting it. Barely.

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51

I just read your Mythic Venice and very much enjoyed it, so feel free to work on a big project next year, announced or not. :wink:

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52

I think you mostly shouldnā€™t be afraid to value your work and charge a decent price, Timothy. Youā€™re worth it as an author. It saddens me to see you get less than a dollar per copy for AMM.

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53

If I make enough writing this year, it becomes more likely. Letā€™s see how I do.

54

Update on Serenissima Obscura and the Magical Renaissance:

We are proud to announce that the main book is laid out and the Ars Magica Guide to the Magical Renaissance is completed and in the hands of our designer. We are super happy with the result and looking forward to the Order of Hermes in 1507! Thank you so much for supporting us in the development of this new era. Also: We are now opening the pledge manager for all backers. It will close before printing in April. This is also the date for the closing of the pre-order store. Please note that the print version of our Ars Magica supplement as well as the wonderful Street Maps of Venice will not be available in retail ā€“ unless a retailer has bought them during the campaign.

Soā€¦ check it out now: https://serenissima-obscura.backerkit.com/hosted_preorders

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55

Just a note to remind other authors outside the US that their dollar has slid hard against other currencies. I'm OK for the moment because most of my work is on US platforms and recorded in USD by Patreon, but it does mean that when I'm paying authors or tax payments in other currencies, things cost far more than they did last year.

Double check your numbers. Mine are within tolerances I can handle, but the price per page of Mythic Europe magazine may need to be higher if the goal is to sell enough copies to pay for the next issueā€™s contents.

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56

Iā€™ve just done the numbers on Mythic Europe Magazine issue 2, and that seems like a good time to work back and look at how everything else is doing:

The author costs for MEM2 so far are USD406. I will need to check that again, because MEM1 was 692, they are much the same size and I wrote a chunk of MEM1, so clearly Iā€™ve made a mistake somewhere. Iā€™ll come back and note the real figure.

The figures below from Drivethru are after they take their 35%. They do not account for 35 Patreons who get their copies as part of the $1 a month tier.
DriveThru is the first line
Itch is the second line.

Mythic Venice:
2260 sales USD265.41*
202 sales USD105.50

MEM1:
103 sales: USD401.70
23 downloads: USD148

AMM1:
473 sales USD353.72
92 sales USD36

AMM2:
41 sales USD213.20
9 sales USD85.

*Mythic Venice is an odd one because Atlas paid me a goody sum to add it to the Kickstarter and then distributed it through Drivethru, so the distributions show up, but not the money they paid me making the ratio skew.

AMM1 is pay what you want. MEM1 is USD6. AMM2 is USD8 hence the smaller distribution but better ratio.

Youā€™ll see this means MEM1 has not paid for itself. Itā€™s close if you assume that the Patreons effectively paid a $5 cover price. I hope that MEM2, since it has a lower author cost, supports itself, which is why Iā€™m so keen to check that number again.

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57

Iā€™ve found my mistake: MEM1 is 71 pages and MEM2 is 51: Iā€™ve mentally been keeping space for a big non-paid article Iā€™ve been promised and for my own contribution so ā€œsame sizeā€, which is wrong. 8)

58

So, roughly how many months (at current sales) until it does pay for itself? Because then you've got a nice ballpark on payback time.

59

Sales arenā€™t smooth and my geometry was never good, but here we are.

The last two months were USD11.30 each after Drivethruā€™s take. There was a little bump when AMM1 and AMM2 came out, so MEM2 might do something similar to bump it along. So, if you assume $5 for each Patreon the current total is $549.70, so MEM1 will pay off in 12 months or so at 3 sales a month.

There is a bit of subtlety here: the MEM1 costs were used as deductions when calculating the profit from my writing last year, and therefore my tax bill, so effectively they offset about AUD227 of tax (which is USD157 on todayā€™s rates.). I knew that going in Iā€™d have the Atlas payment that I could offset with writing related expenses, and a big payment from Shewstone (well, big by my standards for writing) so I knew there was this loophole in the numbers I could use. That being said, thatā€™s not truly a profit, and itā€™s not really something to depend on long term. All it really means is I paid money to the MEM authors instead of to the Tax Office, not that I kept it myself. I canā€™t pull the same trick this year, for example. Well, I can, but Iā€™ve sold so much less stuff that itā€™s likely not going to work. I should check those numbers, actually. There may be an argument to move the launch date of AMM3 to July (Australian tax years are July through June).

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60

My Secrets of the Order has reached 84 sales. After the peak of the first month, itā€™s been going mostly 1-4 sales a month.

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61

A Malady of Madness is at 62. Was reliably selling 4 copies a month for the past three months, but this month is only 1. I've hit the 5 cents a word / NZ minimum wage points as expected, and it should earn out nicely in 18 months time.

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