Three Questions


  1. If enchanting an item with a muto effect, is it necessary to make the duration constant or can it be made instant? I'm talking here about effects similar to Doublet of Impenetrable Silk, or Edge of the Razor?

  2. If I enchant a sword with Edge of the Razor, it needs to penetrate Magic Resistance to do any damage, correct (as opposed to the additional +2), This is a straightforward issue with a standard item, in that I can boost the penetration of the effect, but what if I attune a weapon as a taliman. It is now a magic item, so I need to rll penetration, but what if anything can I do to increase the penetration of the weapon itself? Specific effects can benefit from boosted pen., but the weapon itself seems to get shafted.

  3. I'm a bit confused by the shift in rules from 4th to 5th regarding potions. Used to be that they were a vis efficent delivery system for ritual effects like healing. Now, IIUC, they cost no vis. If that's the case, how is it possible to create single-use items like healing potions?



Permanent instant-heal potions do not exist in the core rules anymore. The closest equivalent potions can give you temporary healing for a day/month, or +(bignum) to recovery rolls, month duration.

Or you could put a healing ritual into a Watching Ward :wink:

If you want your doublet to always be inpenterable you should make it constant. You could alternately make it diameter and give it two uses per day and you'd need to turn it on, but you'd save 4 levels.

Only magic needs to penetrate. If there is no magic active upon your enchanted weapon, then it won't get stopped by parma. enchantment itself is not enough.

In previous editions magic items never could do ritual effects. The change in fifth edition was makeing healing a ritual.

For the most part the answer is that a potion of chirugion's healing touch can't be made in fifth edition, (but a potion that boosts recovery totals can be).

One could initiate into the mystery that allows you to bind spirits into items and slowly eat away the spirit's might in order to power the ritual effects, but that's a little exreme. A simpler answer might be to use a waiting spell that is set to deliver the ritual healing spell when your potion is drunk, it's twice the vis but it doesn't involve initiation.

  1. Constant. A permanent (Momentary) effect is achieved by casting a ritual spell on the item.

  2. This is a "pink dot" question. Opinions differ.

The majority view is that an "edge of the razor" sword bounces off parma. Some disagree.

As for penetration, there is (to my knowledge) no majority agreement as to the appropriate solution; there may be a plurality. My house rule is that you have to separately enchant Penetration (without effect) into the sword to make it pierce parma and might. But that is completely a house rule without support in the RAW.

  1. Enchanted items (including charged items) cannot have ritual magic effects in ArM5, save for effects that are over level 50 due solely to magnitude. So "healing potions" are out in the core RAW.

However, non-Hermetic effects could probably create healing potions; a Holy Mage might be able to create them, although holy potions may be more limited in use (can't use 'em to sin). Hyperborean magic might also be able to do the same, although it's a dead tradition and any such potion would be centuries old.

Only in the case of creo spells. Muto spells that make things unnatural can't be made permanent with a ritual.

Most likely, I will never understand why anybody will spend so much time and vis into his or her talisman and then goes around hitting things with it...
A talisman is the most precious item a mage will probably have. Losing it will result in a severe impairment of his power and many seasons' work is lost. So for Bonisagus' sake, don't whack things with your talisman! Weapons can be so fragile in battle. (Didn't you ever botch in combat?)


Because some Magi go around hitting things? In games where conflict with mundanes is common, mundane combat is still a damn effective tool. Even against many magi, sticking a sword through them can be surprisingly effective. For some combat oriented magi, their weapon is a convenient talisman, because they will be holding it anyway. It also allows them to capitalize on the effort they expend to improve their combat skills to deliver touch range spells.

My 2 cents, anyway.


I do appreciate Vetrenius' point however... It is beyond me why would anyone want to put their talisman to such stress and breaking possibilities. There are other options that would suit combative magi just as well, such as jewelry (portable and out of the way) and, say, a belt or the classic sword scabbard as opposed to the sword itself.

Remember that any physical damage to a magical item will cancel that item's magical properties, and only one trained as a Verditius may hope to restore the item. Why risk it with your talisman then, when you can make it a regular enchanted item instead?

I would not make a sword a talisman or any other weapon because the fact is that the blade regularly gets damage with Nicks and chips that you have to use a whetstone to correct.

Mundane combat is effective, I admit since no matter how good, a dagger in the back will cramp your style. It isn't hard though for a mage to protect themselves from any weapon (ReHe 25, ReTe 25, ReCo 25) should block most attacks.

Hmmm, they do have a point. Some enchantment to make the weapon stronger or spells to keep it maintained might be a good idea. Antonio Perez of Flambeau, he has a really powerful magic sword, but his Talisman is his oak wand. Which is also hits people with, but not usually. A Talisman sword has magical advantages though. As an extension of your Touch, you can use it to cast spells on those you strike in combat.

One of the tricks We've learned (to our detriment at first) is just how effective a simple drop of blood can be.

My flambeau has an impressive parma for good reason. But when he was struck with a dagger, the penetration multiplies for having some of his blood made the combat turn in an entirely unexpected way.

He has a powerful Virditious sword which he plans to use for drawing some blood and then opening up with some nasty Perdo spells.

Do you have a page reference on that? I was digging through the section on Hermetic Magic, and I don't think I see anything that makes momentary (permanent) rituals the sole provenance of Creo rituals. It might just be an oversight, but I'm not sure you couldn't just do the Muto ritual. That wouldn't change the essential nature of the thing, but it would have it hold the form until something changed it again. (or back.)


EDIT: Ah, I think, by inference, it's the Limit of Creation? (page 80, first column.) But that's listed as a possible flaw in the theory, so you could modify it.

Honestly, though, I think Muto rituals that can be made indefinite through the use of vis aren't game breaking-- PeVi can still unravel them, whereas I don't tend to think it can do so to CrFo rituals. (at least, that's how we play it out.) The Limit of Essential Nature says that something has to power that change-- the vis used in the ritual. What's left open ended is how long that vis powers the muto magic in question.

Actually, it's more within the greater limit of Essential Nature: "[t]hus, Muto magic must always be maintained, while the effects of Rego magic persist after the spell occurs". A ritual with Momentary duration is not "maintained" just by virtue of the vis involved. You can permanently improve something via Creo; you can permanently devolve something with Perdo, but you can't make something permanently unlike itself via Muto.

You can, of course, create an item that is, in effect, always on. However, at that point, it's worth taking into account the Muto Corpus guidelines on p. 132, and the way that constantly being under a Muto effect can have lasting ramifications.

It's under the description of duration momentary on page 112 middle column.

"Ritual Creo spells with Momentary duration create things that last as long as any other thing of that type... This also applies to ritual healing spells."

Thanks Erik -- Since this is (or appears to be) an echo of rather too many "5e mis-interpreted by remembering 4e", it is worth pointing out at length that, compared to 4th Ed & 3rd Ed:

  • 5th Ed made major alterations to the definitions and areas covered by the Techniques and Forms (esp. the 5 Techniques)

  • Permanency disappeared completely - there is no Permanent Duration, and the confusing Instant-as-a-Moment vs Instant-as-the-start-of-forever has gone

  • a Magical device can have an "Always On" effect which will make its effect persist without flickering at sunrise or -set, but is dependent on the device functioning to sustain the effect. This is the nearest to 4e Permanency.

Some lasting effects are possible:

  • Momentary Creo Rituals can create a substance which remains (natural) when the spell ends, but nothing else affects the substance (it changes naturally from then on) - other Creo spells the effect goes when the magi ends

  • Rego can move or affect things so that the movement or similar remains (but is then no longer affected by magic and changes naturally)

  • Perdo can destroy things, and unless they heal by nature they remain destroyed

  • Muto is always and only ever Un-Natural Change (Natural Change is the province of Rego).
    There is no spell in 5e which can extend an unnatural change after the end of the magic causing it.

These are but some of the 5e changes.

Golden Rule for 5th Ed - set aside any 4e or earlier rule books, and only use 5e books for any authority.

(By all means dip into older books for inspiration - I still have a complete set of 4e and do so, but I always re-interpret 4e into 5e context.)

My reccomendation for any combat orientated mage is:
Use spells to kill of mundanes.
Use mundane weapons to kill those protected by MR (Might, Parma, you name it).

Using maic items as weapons looses the point in my point of view:
1.) You have to overcome the MR.
2.) Once damaged, it looses all its powers until repaired by a Verditious. (Can talismans be repaired by someone else????) And weapons are damaged so easily. By the way, armour even more easily...

The only thing suitable to this task is an Item of Quality, which is not considered magical for the purpose of MR.

You could just enchant the pommel of a sword however. It could affect the rest of the sword through powers invested in it, but when they are not in effect, the sword is just a sword. As long as any sword-affecting enchantments are R: Touch, you could even install the pommel stone in a new sword if the old one gets beaten up too much.

And even if you are enchanting strength into the weapon to prevent it from getting damaged, Penetration is cheap.


Oh yes! I forgot abou this possebility! That would do the trick nicely!