TMRE first Look

Don't be silly, this is the Mysteries thread. I earned grand mastery through the ordeal of posting, not through making some sort of a deal with otherworldly powers. (But If John or Michelle are reading, I might be willing to trade a batch of cookies or other baked good for an even cooler title)

The base level of the spell needs to be equal to the might of the creature, and when a magus casts the sythemata spell the target can feel it, and use this advanced warning to flee. If you just want to defeat a creature I think that there are easier ways to get the job done. Synthemata is for when you want to own a monster hook of your very own.

OK, thank you again for ansewering this so quickly, it seems the rundown is general initation rules, alchemy, astrology, dream magic, divination and augury, spirit magic, theurgy, arithmetic magic, mercurian magic.

A hefty rooster. Between this and the HoH:MC paths, I surmise there will be more than enough ground for a Mystery-oriented magus to quest for a couple centuries and more !! Not to mention the fact that Mystery Virtues may also be ood focus for indipendent research, too.

Truly the authors (and Hermetic researchers of yore) have done a lot of lab work!! I can so perceive this bok becoming the other half of the corebook, along with the HoH books.

The only slight letdown, contrary to mine expectatons, there were no Diedne Mysteries. Maybe are they being saved for Ancient Magic or HoH: Societates ??

there is Chthonic Magic in RoP:Infernal

If I correctly understand the spoilers I'm in possession of, Synthemata Magia has no base level = might prerequisite, although the roll to glimpse the Synthemata of the creature is rather hard. Nonetheless, I would expect Hermetic summoners or demon-hunters to specialize in these two virtues.

I think the mentioning of Mercurian was the final goodie! Even if I'm crossing the pond (aka the Atlantic) later this year to visit my brother i New York and had planed to stock up on the latest books then - saving tons on shipping and Danish taxes (when I last time recieved HoH:TL, Covenants and Grand Tribunal I had to pay 40$ in the taxes alone!) I've had it.

I just caved in and rushed to Warehouse 23 and ordered... I'm an addict and can't help it - somebody please put me down! Is there anything like Ars Anonymous...?

This hard-core Diedne fan would perceive as a rather severe letdown if accusations of Diedne infernalism were ever given any more OOC substance than vicious Tremere libel and slander. From the spoilers you gave in the other thread, I understood Chtonic Magic as only bearing a possible thematic similitude to Diedne Magic, being (among other things) the magic of sacrifices and such. What's the deal ?

You're right, I had originally meant to put a smiley on that statement

Holy Crap! Were not worthy! Were not worthy!

Hey I live in Aurora IL, I can say that!

RE: Names of Power, I've checked my spoiler info, may it be that this Virtue only allows to boost Theurgical spells, whereas Invocation Magic would allow to give a boost to all hermetic spells that fall under an area of focus similar to a minor magical focus ??

Hagazussa, I fear you may be disapointed. The 4th ed book drew well from Giordorno Bruno style Hermticism, and the 14th century Hermetic tradition. While I am not without knowledge for the real world occult, I think you might find The Infernal more interesting in this respect. I was trying to move away from 18th century masonic style iniatatory cults, and towards early 13th century magic, and I'm afriad the Picatrix and other magic which certainly have a place in Ars games have been moved to other supplements, as we were concentrating on (game) Hermetic Magic.

I honestly can't recall much about the book, but while it loosely references real occult motifs in many places, it is NOT hermeticism in the early Renaissance sense at all this time. Please don't kle tht is put you off, and i'm always up for a good chat about those subjects, but they were outside our scope a bit -- I think.

As I said, it's been a long time! :slight_smile:

HOWEVER, the really neat thing about the book is one can create using it almost any Initiatory Mystery Cult you wish, and indeed could quite possibly create GD style orders for the game, or in fact mirror many differring paths, by using the virtues and the ability to create (in character or out) your own paths...

I definitely tried to avoid any Crowleyian/Gardernerian/Regardie/Waite or Levi influences on the text, as highly anachronistic, and instead read what I could find on 13th century thaumurturgy, then we created a tool kit based on the broad themes. The mystery cults I wrote vary wildly in their influence, but are exemplars of what you can do, not prescripptive or even recommended, as we fully encourage you to creeate your own, and provide the mechanics for this. That is not to say I am unfamiliar with them. :slight_smile: We will have to chat more when you have seen the book!

I really hope you enjoy the book, and we will have to talk more about it soon!

cj x

I may not have well understood the setup of the Astrology virtues. Does it really include only two virtues, Planetary Magic (which I surmise it's minor, and I understand grants an astrological bonus to lab work) and Astronomy ? The list of benefits from the latter seems quite hefty, even for a major virtue :open_mouth:

I was running out of time when I wrote that. The paragraph you quoted does not refer to the Astrology virtue it refers to the astrology chapter (planetary magic is way back in chapter 4, which is mysteriously labeled "chapter number" rather than chapter 4 in its title block)

There are two virtues described in the sastrology chapter and the second one is a doozy but not as big as it sounded.

Periapt: Minor, do your astrology homework and you can create charged devices as if you had a lab text even if you don't.

Celestial magic: Major
allows the magus to gain horoscope bonuses on any laboratory activity (not just activities that have astrological correspondences as is the case with planetary magic), Astrological durations that allow the character to, with a successful artes lib (astronomy) roll have spells that last several times as long as the standard durations (but they need to make the roll which gets more difficult the longer they want to stretch their astrological duration out). The character may also throw a horoscope and find out the best time to do cast a specific spell and then wait and receive a bonus, finally the character can give his magic items something akin to the cyclic magic virtue giving them more penetration or uses per day during the more astrologically favorable part of the year and less penetration or fewer uses per day during the less astrologically favorable portion of the year.

There is also some discussion regarding enchanted devices to assist in the calculation of horoscopes so that character can actually make some of the formidable difficulty rolls that are needed to take advantage of this mystery.

(Divination using astrology is covered in the divination chapter (which I haven’t read yet)

Yes, but you don't get the full bonus with it either. If you make the roll you can spont a spell to help with your penetrationa bt or you can go home and make a spell just like hermetic Synthemata (which I was trying to describe in the section that you quoted). If the Sythemata magia character fails their roll to intuit synthemata they can spend a season fasting and mediating over their encounter with the creature and try to make the roll again. With the Sythemata magia virtue created spells can be of any level and provide a bonus to penetration of the base level used to make the spell (unlike Hermetic synthemata which requires a base level of the might of the creature).

They are terribly useful - ask any Numerologist, and let him rant on about how useful they are...

It's not really a "gateway" - a required precursor.

As i recall it, "Invocation Magic" is the only Virtue which is powerless without Invocation Magic and is designed as an "upgrade" of Names of Power.

Theurgy and Consummate Talisman both work fine without Names of Power, but benefit from it. (You can use any MuVi effect to affect your own magic in Consummate Talisman, not just Names of Power)

Have you considered trying someone like Leisure Games in London? The store gets things quite quickly (the UK distributor companies are better than many), and they offer mail-order. Ordering from them you'd only pay European surface postage and still get decent delivery times, and no import duties to sort out (though you get charged UK VAT).

http://www.leisuregames.com/

They're very good yes, bought my Covenenats book and Mystery Cults from them... Fast delivery and quite acceptable prices.

CJ is right - the rules focus very much on "what would Hermetic magi devise as cult-magic". We actively avoided later period material, and CJ provided a large amount of contemporary or near-contemporary write-ups, plus some write-ups built on game-context (rather than history).

There's very little prescriptive stuff (unlike HoH:MC which comes across to many people as prescribing "how" to run the 4 Mystery Houses (even thogh the authors point out the scope for alternatives...)) - it's got starter details and a lot of material to "build your own"...

Hi chaps,

the mechanics are Neil's area, but I will point out one thing which might not be clear. Mystery cults rarely initiate one type of magic only: so one does not have a cult which initiates all the Theurgy virtues, in the order given in the book. Well you might, but you also might have a cult whose magical tradition draws upon astrology, alchemy, theurgy, divination AND Spirit Magic, as you progress further in to the initiatory maze.

And so Mystery Cults are incredibly diverse, and you can create a very effective replica of many real world traditions by combining and flavouring the Virtues accordingly, and by then designing the cults structure and initiation rites accordingly... the mechanics support a huge variety of cults, so you can easily design a Mystery like those in HOH: MC, to reflect a players interest, a weird magical tradition practiced only in your tribunal, or a really cool idea you had watching the Saturday late movie.

Part of the logic here was we want the cults to be genuinely mysterious, and we therefore encourage story guides to create their own for the purposes of the story: for SG's with less time there are a number of examples given, but the ones in the chapters PRIMARILY draw from that tradition in that chapter, so the Green Cockerel asre mainly focussed on alchemy, because they are supposed to illustrate ONE WAY you can use the mechanics in that chapter.

For those who loved the cults in Mysteries 4th: that book is far from redundant, and very little crossed over in tot he new book. You can easily adapt alll of those cults in to the TMRE framework by taking the analogous mysteries, and just changing how the mechanics work, while retaining all the cool flavour and interest... We deliberately did not set out to revise Mysteries, as much as completely re-envision and rewrite it, so there is pretty much no content the same at all.

Hope that helps! Caribet may well correct me, but that was my understanding...

cj x

Ok, I think that with the spoilers Erik so graciously provided, a bit of comparison can already be made with the old Mysteries system.

We already knew (from HoH:MC) that the general system for Mystery initation was going to be a massive improvement, making mastery of one or more mysteries a viable and easily customizable career choice for a magus instead of the impossible burden of raking unbelievable amounts of Flaws.

Also the setup of the various mystery paths or schools (yes, I know there're no longer rigid tree-like initiation schemes for the various virtue groups, but they can be freely customizble both by the various mystery cults and by individual mystagogues, and by self-initiaties, and that's quite nice) look like a definite improvement.

The old Hermetic Alchemy, Theurgy, and Numerology now give defined and specific game bonuses that are in-theme with the mystery concept, instead of the dreaded "in doubt, throw an Affinity at it" mechanic that plagued Mysteries 1st ed. It seems gone, and that's reassuring.

Alchemy has lost the bizarre variations to Muto, and the Elixir now sounds like a real improvement to vanilla longevity rituals. Alchemy still looks like the lab rat Mystery, with little or no "field magic" benefit to the traveling or questing mage.

As a general note, Mystery Virtues seem to have been compacted, so that in most cases it will be unfeasible to structure a Mystery cult "typical" iniation path around just one school (with the possible exception of Alchemy and Theurgy/Spirit Magic: I'm somehow perplexed about the wisdom of splitting the latter into two separate school), but most cults will lijkely mix and match from different areas.

For Alchemy 5-7 (depending on whether you count minor and major versions of the same virtue as separate) Virtues are reported. Hermetic Alchemy allows to plug an annoying hole in mainstream Hermetic theory and nicely sidestep the Limit of Vis by extracting non-Vim vis. I can see this rather popular with the average magus, since questing for gathering specific vis qualities can become rather boring after a while: this can be a meanace to the trading privileges of the Mercere, though. Vulgar Alchemy and Planetary Magic are mostly for the lab rat specialist, but they offer hefty bonuses in that area. I admit I did not understood the spoiler on Philosophical Alchmy to adjudicate its scope. Given its previous version was rather confusing and useless, I cannot but expect an improvement. The Elixir virtue again has strong appeal to all types of wizards and looks like a sharp improvement to the previous version (which appeared much hype, but lacked much of real long-term substance). It will be much interesting to compare the various immortality solutions that different Mysteries provide, from the Elixir to Becoming to, I expect, Spirit version of Becoming, Living Ghost or somesuch).

Talismans: this is an area that was wholly undeveloped in old Mysteries, but it is also a field where it makes sense that hermetic mystagogues have done some serious research. If I understand it correctly, Talisman virtues allow similar Muto Vim bonuses to thematic spells, and it is always good to see that heremtic research have been creative enough to develop a similar end result through wholly-different methods. It's laso good to have ways for different character concepts and magical specializations to be able to reap the same benefit without forcing the concept.

Astrology: this is another area where a lot of improvement in clarity (and easiness of use) of virtues has been done. Some of the old abilities (improved charged devices, horoscope bonuses to lab activity) are back, some are not. I must admit I miss the ability to establish an Arcane Connection by horoscope and to use specific astrlogical conditions as a substitute for ritual vis requirements. As much as these abilities were indeed prone to abuse, it was definitely nice to have Mysteries that were able to break or sidestep some limitations of mainstream Hermetic magic in thematic ways. It proved that Hermetic theory had definite potential for improvement. Oh, well. It looks like Alchemy virtues (and maybe augury/divination ones) will have to fulfill that role.

Nonetheless, Celestial Magic still look a quite tantalizing prize for an initation quest, with several definite bonuses to magical practice. Horoscope bonuses to lab activity, astrological cyclic magic for items, astrological durations, horoscope bonuses to spells, oh my !! Even if this looks like especially attractive to lab specialists, I expect Astrological durations and horoscope spell bonuses to be appealing to all kinds of magi. It will be interesting to compare Astrological durations with what is privided by the Spell Timing virtue. Is it another case of parallel development from different schools of hermetic research. In any case, astrology was a big component of Middle Age magic, and this virtue aptly reflect this importance.

Theurgy: this is my preferred mystery area, so my judgement may be biased. Of course, full judgement has to wait for the spoilers on spirit magic, too, since IMO theurgy and spirit magic mostly form two interwined halves of the same magic school (with the partial exception of Synthemata, which is really the other half of the sympathetic magic school, together with the Merinita Folk Magic path) and I'm perplexed about the choice to separate them. This is another area that formed a major part of Middle Age magic, so it is nice to see its ArM counterpat has the importance it deserves. In some ways, this is the polar opposite to Alchemy, as theurgy appears of greater appeal to the traveling or questing maga.

Hermetic theurgy is a quite nice and very thematic way for hermetic magic to improve its efficacy at flexible and spontaneous magic (esp. for those magi and Houses who are extraneous or hostile at druidic- or fae-influenced magic) and I expect this Virtue to show up in lots of initation paths. A lot of improvement about the old annoying "affinity something" version. Kudos to the authors for bringing back the old, very nice, Thaumaturgy concept, in a less godlike power version.

Names of Power and Invocation Magic: if I correctly understand this, it is a way to use the power of godlike spirit archetypes for bestowing focus-like spell bonuses to hermetic magic in a flexible way (I expect something like mastering the secret name of Vulcanus for craft magic, Apollo for healing magic, and so on). Another nice, thematic way to break the limitations of mainstream Hermetic magic at Muto Vis. Again, nice to see proof that hermetic magic has thematic potential for improvement. I expect this to be popular with all kinds of mages (the ones that won't use Talismans or horoscope boosts).

Synthemata virtues: sympathetic magic with a big oomph. Nice to see that the logical extension of sympathetic magic rules in mainstream hermetic magic are developed to their logical potential. In many ways, this is both the parallel and the complement to what merinita mystagogue researchers have done with their charm magic school. Less widespread in scope (as it only applies to creatures with a Might score) but nonetheless much, much appealing to many kinds of hermetic mages, from Quaesitors to demon-hunters to Merinita to spirit-summoners. I especially expect demon-hunters to go begging on their knees for being initiated in these virtues :wink:

Numerology: here we have the previous read-headed Cinderella of Mysteries, the school which was cut out of the book for fanzine exile, with the exception of the Sacred Architecture bit, probably because the previous system was largely unplayable. Again, nice to see that a very thematic area of Middle Age magic was given a playable and appealing version in Hermetic magic. Hermetic numerology has its definite appeal for those subtle scholar types that wish to have all kinds of low-key quiet magic readily at hand, without the chore of painstakingly mastering each spell multiple times. Again, a nice, thematic way for break out of some limitations of hermetic magic system. Proably very popular for Jerbitons.

Hermetic Geometry: very, very nice set of target/range/duration. I expect the virtue to be especially appealing to summoners and demon/creature hunters (and diabolists), since the ability to cast Circle/Ring spells at range is quite useful for them. Another nice, thematic expansion of hermetic magic system, and a cool (and logical) way to incorporate all those old scenes of demons and magical beasties trapped in a magical circle in ArM.

Hermetic Architecture: Always nice to see that Bonisagus' accomplishments are not the be-all, end-all of magic, and hermetic mages can indeed manipulate regios and auras (but not set them up, alas). This virtue provides a clever solution to the old puzzle of how Hermetic mages were expected to be able and enchant very large structures, too. I expect it to be equally appealing to mages to wish to set up shop amid the mundanes and to the ones who wish to shun contact with them.

Review of spoilers end here, while I expect news about spirit magic, dream magic, and augury/divination, and for the book to slowly :frowning: worm its way to Europe.