To paradigm or not to paradigm. That is the question??

You are using a word, 'paradigm', in the context of history of science, where this word is clearly defined. But you use it with a different, though unclear, meaning: that's faux-academic and as hard to understand as humpty-dumpty.
Yes, 'paradigm' is as little owned by Kuhn and history of science as 'field' is owned by algebra or physics, but if you write about algebra, you cannot just switch without preannouncement the meaning of the word 'field' either.

Here you used, again in the the context of history of science, a term, 'paradigm shift', which was created by Kuhn within this discipline for a specific purpose, and has no meaning outside this discipline and related ones. And you ask me to understand what you want it to mean. So that's a squared humpty-dumpty.
As for medieval paradigm shifts: Kuhn widened his use of 'paradigm' after publishing 'The Structure of Scientific Revolutions': see e. g. his 'Second Thoughts on Paradigm', from 'The Structure of Scientific Theories', (Urbana, Ill., 1974, p.459-482).

Kind regards,

Berengar

I'm not an historian. I do not object to misuse of the term. It's just not that important. :neutral_face:

In all honesty.... sighs

I only read the Structure of Scientific Revolution, and I did that last millennium. It seems you will have to show lenience. :open_mouth:

Wrong! I am using it in regards with Mythic Europe and Ars Magica. I have the highest regard for history and it is one of the reasons I love Ars. But no matter what, though some seems to want it differently :wink: , Mythic Europe, Ars Magica and RPG are not the context of history of science. Period.

So far you are the only one who found it unclear. Yet you are the only one expressing superior knowledge on it. Hmm....

And you are the only one bringing academics into the equation - I never presumed that this was academical, you did.

I am not discussing history, as in the sense your of algebra-allegory, but the setting of ME.

Actually I did not. You raised the initial critique that you understood the word paradigm differently. Point taken. But I disagree. Your line of reasoning would be legitimate if we were on a scholar board debating the field of history. Newsflash: We are not! Nor did I start this thread on such a board, because I would rather be here discussing Ars Magica with my SG peers instead.

You efforts in spite I will not recant (Eppur si muove...) to your scientific inquisition. :imp:

Berengar, I respect your for a lot of things, but in this I urge you to come off your high horse and enjoy the debate with the rest of us on reasonable terms. Your condemning arguments would be more at home on the old version bezerkerlist. :astonished:

I always value any comments by Berengar.
Having a scholarly approach to arguments is very helpful to a non-scholar like myself.
He often refers to books , texts or theories that i have never heard of ,
and can look up.

I do value comments and arguments too.

What I dislike is a quarrel over semantics. And that is what it was.

I personally curse the day White Woof introduced the world paradigm to the gamer lexicon.

I could think of several things to curse that the Wolf did to Ars..

LOL

True dat.

Definitely.

And thinking, that 'the medieval paradigm' was from ArM3 in 1992. And that, while now two versions came out under David Chart's expert care without mangling the word, the forums have still not recovered from White Wolf's failed attempt at cool terminology.
It would all be so easy now: just say 'no' to the misuse of the word, and the perhaps last vestige of White Wolf messing around with ArM would disappear.

Instead:

Oh no, we rather sever every tie Mythic Europe might have to the real middle ages, before we jettison White Wolf's oh so precious invention. :laughing:

Let's hear also T. S. Kuhn about it: "Paradigm was a perfectly good word, until I messed it up." (1995 in his 'The Road since Structure: Philosophical Essays, 1970-1993, with an Autobiographical Interview' - in the interview therein.)
A good thing he doesn't know what ArM fans did and do to the word. Does anybody still remember big-P-paradigm? :laughing:

Kind regards,

Berengar

No, we should not sever “every tie Mythic Europe might have to the real middle ages”. Dealing with the middle ages is not synonymous with dealing with the science of science or historiography for that matter. Nor is it synonymous with caring about how WW handled Ars. That is purposefully overextending anything I ever said.

Where do those sour grapes come from? I do not think this forum suffers from anything it needs to recover from. I took time myself to explain that when we talk of paradigm, that we should be aware that the notion of "the medieval paradigm" was a fictional construction, yet you continue this line of condemnation. Many people have used the term paradigm in this thread, and others, prior to this argument. The only thing this pointless wrangling has succeeded in so far has been to mute all those who were really interested in getting input on how to portray ME when they play. Those who asked the questions. I hope it will pass. Because they, myself included, were attacked on the wording instead of responding to the essence. That matters more to me than a world of semantics.

And even if Kuhn did know, I do hope his afterlife is more exiting than to worry about this drab semantic fight. If not, I pity him. He would have deserved better.

Dealing with medieval approaches to science, medicine etc. is dealing with the history of science, and its terminology. There is no way around this.

Not so much as the old Berklist of the big-P-paradigm, for sure.
But, to let you in on a secret of pulcinella: nothing puts off scholars more quickly than amateurs who ape their terminology without understanding it. Do so, and you usually get dropped quietly and politely. And then they start to talk behind your back.
I have no time now to elaborate what IME big-P-paradigm and the like did to the rep of the Berklist.

Kind regards,

Berengar

I feel like a kid whose parents are having a fight. :confused:

I have no problem with "the medieval paradigm" having a very game-specific meaning in Ars Magica. Just like I don't mind falling objects obeying Aristotelian physics even though it isn't consistent for them to do so (I'm a physicist). I'm here to enjoy the game, not mire in semantic and logical debate.

As stated above, I use "paradigm" as meaning the reality of the world on the one hand and a pseudo-medieval mindset on the other. Certainly not what it would mean in other contexts, I'm fine with that.

There, now I've joined the fight. :unamused:

If you did me the service of reading what has actually been said, you would see that the term paradigm has been used NOT on medieval approaches to science but exclusively on how we scetch the fictional reality of the ME setting. Or in short: we disagree. I do not think we will come to an agreement. And running over repeating the same arguments will not change that. At least accept that.

Berengar did I get you right? Did you just call me an "amateurs who ape...". First of all I do have a university degree in history, though Kuhn wasn't a focus of mine, but in this forum I personally just find it pointless to rigorously apply the semantics the way you do. But even if I did, or anyone else did for that matter, come of as an aping amateur, your words are indignant and a touch arrogant.


Pulcinella

Please elaborate on your Pulcinella remark. Who then is the Pulcinella in this regard? (disregarding that I have his mask among my Commedia dell'arte masks). A mean self-centred vicious brute pretending to be either smarter or more ignorant than he is? Our disagreement aside I wouldn’t stoop to call anyone so, and I hope the same goes for you, so of whom do you speak?

Personally I did not go active on the Berklist because of that rep, though I did follow it at times from afar. I do honestly not think any single subject caused it, but rather the flamewars brought on by the tone at which some people debate and use notions of academic superiority to bully of those they disagree with. Hurrah for people wanting to educate themselves and hurrah for people wanting to share their knowledge, but this is a game and a hobby and not a scholarly convention with requirements to the participants benchmarks.

Welcome Yair. It is comforting to know that if we are going to be dropped quietly and politely and people then starting to talk behind your back, that I will not be alone out there. :slight_smile:

Could i say ,
that i think any disagreement is due to an assumption of tone ,
that may not be there.
English is not the primary language of several people here.
(there is no suggestion that any of you are at any way deficient in its use)

The FAQ has a masterful answer, I can't believe we didn't refer to it sooner:

What is the medieval paradigm?

This is a long one.

Maintainer's Note:

Medieval Paradigm is the topic most likely to start heated discussion on the Ars Magica Mailing List (note that we never have Flame Wars). Put simply, it is the game tenet that states that medieval Europe existed as its residents believed it to. Faeries and Giants, God and Satan, and all between existed and had an effect on the day-to-day life of those living at the time. Scientific principles that we accept as determining the nature of the universe do not exist in Medieval Europe; diseases are caused by humour imbalances and demonic possesions, meat sponaneously degenerates into maggots when left out, and other such concepts are the foundation of the Medieval Paradigm.

The effect this has on game play varies from saga to saga. Some troupes implement a very tight implementation of the paradigm, while others choose to play it a little more free and loose. There have been many interesting and informative arguments about the intricacies of paradigm, including but not limited to:

    * Does a maga who has casts Eyes of the Cat on herself see in color or monochrome?
    * Does metal armor make one more susceptible to lightning-type damage?
    * Are the stars in the heavens really jewels running on a great track?
    * How should women be portrayed?
    * Is the Pope infallible?
    * Are the Saracens really bloodthirsty demon-worshippers?

These questions, while quite interesting to discuss, don't have a "correct" answer; like most things in Ars Magica, the final decision rests with the troupe.

Medieval Paradigm

I begin with some definitions of paradigm that I believe will be acceptable to all.

Paradigm -- a) a pattern, example, or model b) an overall concept accepted by most people in an intellectual community, as a science, because of its effectiveness in explaining a complex process, idea, or set of data.

-- Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition

A paradigm is a set of rules and regulations (written or unwritten) that does two things: it establishes or defines boundaries it tells you how to behave inside the boundaries in order to be successful.

--Barker, Joel A. Paradigms, New York: Harper Collins Publishers, 1992

Paradigm

The dictionary meaning is "an outstandingly clear or typical example or archetype." Paradigm is from the Greek compound word paradeigma, with para meaning alongside and deiknunai meaning to see or to show. A paradigm is a concept, often assumed or subconscious, that enables one to see and understand. It is not the thoughts we have, but the framework around which our thoughts are formed. In this sense, our paradigms are the mental tools or mindsets that we use to understand a situation.

-- Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition

For Ars Magica, the term paradigm is a difficult and often controversial subject. When it is brought up, it often elicits immediate and often damning response. Yet, at the heart of the debate lies a commentary on the approach to, and the possibility of, the game.

The issue is further complicated by the fact that the well-worn phrase "it's not in paradigm" may be used to mean, typically (and it should be noted that these three points are not exclusive, but often are unused simultaneously, depending on the user):

  1. that it doesn't follow the physical laws of the game world, usually held to be Aristotelian OR
  2. that it (whether point of view, technology, material good, etc.) is anachronistic to the historic Middle Ages OR
  3. that it does not accord with the speaker's conception of Mythic Europe, drawn on some other basis

These uses of the word cannot help causing a great deal of confusion and irritation among many people. Thus we have the regular, and sometimes acrimonious, discussions on paradigm.

There are two major points of debate of the concept. The first is the very meaning of the term and its applicability to the game. The second deals with how the concepts behind the term should be applied. I shall first look at the debates on the meaning of the term.
The Value of Paradigm

The first group tends to be best categorized by, "if it isn't broke, don't fix it." This group takes the reasonable position that no matter what the technical or specialist terminology of paradigm that may or may not be used in academia, at the heart the word means: "a pattern, example, or model." The express the opinion is that the word paradigm accurately expresses what the game intends, and that further attempts to describe the concept in other terms should be ignored. This argument usually decides upon a definition of paradigm along these lines as best suited for the game: "The set of rules and laws designed to simulate natural laws that gamers use to define what is and is not possible for their characters to accomplish in their fictional world."

The second tendency is those who wish to stick to a more strict Kuhnian definition of paradigm, that of: an overall concept accepted by most people in an intellectual community, as a science, because of its effectiveness in explaining a complex process, idea, or set of data. Due to this interpretation, this group often finds the use of paradigm within Ars Magica to be misleading or just plain wrong. Many who prescribe here usually argue for the removal of the word and the substitution of more accurate concepts, such as worldview or cosmology.

The third argument is perhaps the most quixotic, as it is not a true argument at all. Here we have those postings to the list asking that this discussion be ended. This group usually creates more messages decrying the discussion of paradigm than those arguing the above two.

The discussion of the meaning of paradigm usually resolves to five options, where the discussion usually becomes bogged down, turns into a flame war or people lose interest for the moment:

  1. Agreeing that there is not something that the term 'paradigm' is used to refer to; therefore, agreement to recognize the term 'paradigm' to refer to this thing, and then argue out of exactly what that meaning might be.
  2. Choose of an appropriate substitute word: 'worldview' for the subjective and 'cosmology' for the objective.
  3. Avoidance of the word 'paradigm' as an inconvenient shortcut word and and the choice to discuss the longhand implications
  4. Continuing to use the word 'paradigm' and argue out of how nobody/anybody/somebody has exclusive right to its application.
  5. Becoming disgusted by the whole thing and/or letting the naysayers end the discussion.

    Paradigm and Ars Magica

The other major discussion point regarding paradigm is how to view whatever it represents in the Ars Magica universe. On one side we have the paradigm is absolute. The other side, albeit smaller, tends to argue something often called "belief defines reality" or "bdr" for short.

The absolute paradigm folks take the argument, to varying degrees depending on their view, that what the medieval person believed is the physical (and metaphysical) nature of reality. Hopefully adding the caveat that the game specific aspects are also true, that is, faerie, hermetic magic, etc. Often times the term "big-P paradigm" comes along. This is usually used to refer to the unalterable reality, or the cosmology, of the Ars Magica world. In this context, "little-p paradigms" are what people believe, which may or may not be true.

The inevitable difficulty against this position is that there are many groups within Europe that have their own, sometimes opposing worldviews. Thus it quickly becomes difficult to sort and choose on what is true and what is not. A similar difficulty here is the often brought up argument that we usually only discuss the viewpoint of the educated, and thus the clergy. The simple response to this is that we only have access to their beliefs since they are the only ones who wrote them down.

The second group in this part of the argument is the "belief defines reality" crowd. This argument reached its hey-day during the time White Wolf was publishing the game. Its proponents argue that it is only people's belief in something that makes it change. If people's beliefs change, then so does reality. The logical conclusion of this is that if you get enough people to believe something than reality changes accordingly. This was originally required by White Wolf to explain how the Ars Magica universe would evolve into their World of Darkness.

Teleology and Paradigm

Teleology is the study of ends, purposes, and goals have a teleological world view, the ends of things are seen as providing the meaning for all that has happened or that occurs. If you think about history as a timeline with a beginning and end, in a teleological view of the world and of history, the meaning and value of all historic events derive from their ends or purposes, that is, all events in history are future-directed. Aristotle's thought is manifestly teleological; of the four "reasons" or "causes" (aitia) for things, the most important reason is the "purpose" or "end" for which that thing was made or done. The Christian world view is fundamentally teleological; all of history is directed towards the completion of history at the end of time. When history ends, then the meaning and value of human historic teleology experience will be fulfilled. Modern European culture is overwhelmingly teleological in its experience of history, that is, we see history and experience as entirely future-directed. This, in part, is responsible for the proliferation of alternatives, for in a teleological world view, history has potentially an infinite number of options and alternatives, and this proliferation of alternatives is primarily responsible for the crisis of modernity.

In Ars Magica, this term is often used concerning the question of the eventual outcome of Mythic Europe. Does the world eventually turn out like our own, or does it go off in a totally different direction, or something all together different? Ars Magica is an account of Earth as it might have been in consequence of some hypothetical alteration in history, in this case the presence of magic, faerie and the true power of God. The question then becomes, what will its future bring. This is a question that only the individual saga can give. However, the list has tended to have its share of discussion of the subject. Like anything, there are several positions staked out and then a wide spectrum of belief between those.

A normal view is to make a connection i) historical fidelity, ii) historical teleology, and iii) cosmological commitment. The implication is that fidelity to our-world history goes along with a commitment to modern physics and cosmology. There are many different ways to be faithful to the historical record, and one of them, which is perhaps the standard one -- presented in the various Ars Magica books, is to be faithful to some of the beliefs of the inhabitants of our medieval Europe -- so that the sun does circle the Earth, and a different physics is in operation. Furthermore, playing through our world history, with a different set of explanatory resources (magic, the Fay, demons, Hermetic conspiracies, Aristotelian cosmology) than is available to the modern historian, can form the basis of highly imaginative Sagas that have no concern to prevent divergence from our world history beyond a certain point -- and hence have no commitment at all to the development of the modern world. Historical fidelity can also take the form of a commitement to socio-economic history, without resort to significant events in the political sphere.

An eventual goal to this view would be to develop a future history for Ars Magica, utilizing the socio-economic history of our own as a guide. Such an undertaking has daunted even the most ambitious of us on the list.

Others would argue that it is impossible to develop the modern age with the assumptions brought to Mythic Europe. For them, a truly 'mythic' campaign requires diverging far and wide from the historical record. This is an attractive view since it requires little thought on merging our history with all the difficult assumptions that Faerie and Magic and such are real.

Others imagine a game world where the history is like ours, though cosmology is different and the teleological commitment is just the one of the medieval theologians. That prethomistic medieval theology usually did not consider the contemporary politics and historical events of the time under this aspect -- unless an author's intention is obviously panegyrical. Indeed every prerequisite for the individual's salvation, but the contribution of the individual herself, has already been provided by the sacrifice of Christ. So, in the view of Augustine in particular, there is only one issue of the present that is of importance under teleological perspective: the continuous existence and operation of the church. This is supposed to be guaranteed by decree of God. Any other historical events are accidental until the end of time, even the crusades. St. Bernhard used the complete indulgence offered by Eugenius III, not any teleological arguments regarding history, to incite the assembly of Vezelay 1146 -- as far as we know. Of course there were dissenters who gave the present more importance concerning the end of the world: Joachim de Flore with his great following, and most heretics. Thomas Aquinas, however, again avoids the treacherous terrain of teleology in contemporary history and politics nicely. This position might be thought of as a good argument in the starting condition of Ars Magica: there all the history up to the starting point of a campaign has happened by the history book, and still there are magi, faeries, dragons, saints and demons. So it is logical to think how history can proceed by the book while magi, faeries, dragons, saints and demons are still cavorting about in the game world.

Wherever one falls on the debate, in the end, the issue of history and its use in Ars Magica is a fascinating one, one that can and does provide many hours of fascinating debate. Long may we continue to ponder these questions.

Some Personal Reflections

The most important thing about the whole paradigm discussion, no matter where you are is to have patience. Learn from others' mistakes. This subject can and will easily develop into a flamewar. So think closely about what you truly wish to say, and then say it. Do not let others discourage you from the subject. Do not let others say this issue has been hashed over a million times, perhaps it has, but there are still important things to be covered. No discussion can ever truly be over. Contrary to what some may say this is an important issue for this game. One that should, and will, be continually reexamined. Read what others have posted, and then add your view points and opinions. And above all, have fun with it.

-- Jeremiah Genest

Well, let's see. Being a busy guy, I just copy the first part of the first mail of this thread:

So, from the above quote we see, that "what the people in that time believed in" shall be named "Ars Medieval Paradigm", and Furion Transsanus wonders, whether "trying to construct one is somewhat artificial and unconclusive".
And, on a tangent, I translated "the logic in the world Ars Magica takes place in" later to "the logic of the ArM setting", which didn't appeal to Furion Transsanus - though he did give no reason. Would "the principles of the ArM setting" perhaps find more acclaim?

Here's another quote giving an example for desired information:

So that above project to establish the "Ars Medieval Paradigm" would have to rely primarily on history of science, mathematics, and medicine, and to a perhaps lesser degree on history of philosophy, especially metaphysics, history of theology, and the struggling discipline gathering and analyzing medieval folk beliefs. And then it would select and assemble the findings going into the setting.
We know from the wiki en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm what paradigm means in the history of science, mathematics, and medicine (and it is indeed applied also beyond it, though more rarely). Should we really choose a name for this project's subject, "what the people in that time believed in", which at best parodies, and at worst apes without understanding the terminology of our main contributing discipline?
More drastically: Would you call a project 'super-universal field theory' if you desired some input from physicists to it?

Voluntarily. A 'secret of pulcinella' is a fact well-known by most people involved with it, but rarely spoken of by them. You could have easily googled it (and found e. g. peopleplayuk.org.uk/collecti ... er_id%3D83 ), but it's apparently not a common phrase and could be misunderstood. Sorry for that.

I know that well. I suffered with Jeremiah Genest when he wrote it in the mid-nineties, and he did quite a good, and near-saintly self-denying job. That's indeed one of the worst mischiefs the ArM3 with its cool talk about 'the medieval paradigm' has perpetrated.

The problem, as compared with today, had then at least two more complications.
(1) ArM3 had 'the medieval paradigm', and one could hardly give it a lie in the FAQ and say that such a beast could not exist, or such a phrase made no sense.
(2) There was no wiki around then, so you could not just show the actual usage some discipline made of a certain term, but could only direct people to books - which few then followed up as it took both time and money. And standard dictionaries were always many years, if not a few decades, behind in academic technical terminology.

Jeremiah knows T. S. Kuhn and his impact, is very well versed in ancient and medieval history of science and philosophy, and still - for the sake of peace among the fans - he took it upon himself to write an article explaining and trying to make sense of what he knew to be a mess up. :frowning:

Kind regards,

Berengar

I think we need to come up with a glyph for "The Concept Formerly Known As The Medieval Paradigm" and ask Atlas to add it to the list of forum emoticons. :smiling_imp:

What about an upside down P. Oh wait, that's a d.

Hmmmm.

Shoot.

So much for original thought.

Ok, well now that that's solved... :stuck_out_tongue:

Does a cat see in black and white in your Ars Magica game?

What other unusual rules do you use in your games to represent the differences between Mythic Europe and our own world?

There are a few in the books, but they are wide spread, such as humour's imbalance causing illness, inanimate objects having spirits one can talk to, the sun revolving around the earth, etc.

Thats a dangerous thing to ask....., it´s pretty hard to get "modern" players think medieval.