But then that character is an experienced magus unlike you state. I know it is hard to discuss with facts when you have an agenda, but please, keep your facts straight. Moving the goal is a very bad argumentation and loses your credibility.
Out of Gauntlet magus with Wards Major Focus has better chance doing what you described with FOrmulaic SPell than Diedne. IT still rquries very specific built, but computer gamers think a svery specific build si a common case. It is not. It is a very specific build designed to knock out an Aegis if the guards of the covenant are lax. Please, in Ars setting, do not paly like DnD player thinking the setting is passive until the character does something. It is a really bad habit DnD teaches to everyone playing it. You assumed the DIedne can cast spell with spell casting words heard at the boundary of the Aegis with Voice range spell, and nobody notices it while he is dancing with gesures for 15 minutes per magnitude - that is 1 hour 15 mintues with 25th level spell. And that spell casting requires several Concentration checks due time unless the "out of the character generation" character has Concentration of 5 (or 4 with Long Term speciality).
Unlike stated by who? Not by me.
You seem to be confused about who you are talking to.
My appologies. I mixed Life linked & Life boost. Both virtues I find to be Diedne theme friendly but the 1st that does help with spontaneous magic is a major hermetic which as Erik stated would have to be initiated and hence a rare find, even at a journeyman levels. The 2nd, equally powerful to add to penetration totals , is a minor hermetic but for formulaic effects.
Still, even if a young typical Diedne has trouble bringing down mid level Aegis on a spontaneous fiat I think we can agree that with one season to learn a formulaic, pretty much any magi can.
David confirms this is the intended "story enabler" sweet spot that is being aimed.
About getting a chunk of rock of an Aegis boundary being difficult... where any creature or supernatural person feels a tingle when they are about to enter the boundary & is most often designed to be evident. I dare you to find an easier AC to seize. I admit it would take another season to fix it to elevate it from decades duration to Indefinite.
Made me laugh there where Erik being accused of being a scroundrel. A petty theif in the night looking for a quick score of having an extra major hermetic virtue. Careful for you do not yet seem to know the secret societies this forum harbors. Erik belonging to one of the eldest casts of the wise Ash Oaks with numerous deeds of fair judgements if not a bit conservative ones.
All is now fine. We managed to force The David to appear so he may answer what we all knew he would in his ever seeking of the better story.
Still let us shed a tear for Notatus who's lifetime research failed to elevate his magic beyond the reach of formulaic magics.
W
I concur with this. (I think it should take Vis being the only exception.)
The fact that an Aegis can be brought down, and especially that bringing it down is not that difficult for the right Mage, means that the avoidance of open conflict like a Schism is something that must be achieved socially. Open magical war with your fellow Hermetic Magi is dangerous. It is the social cohesion of the Order, such as it is, that keeps the "Pax Hermetica" and not invulnerable magical defenses that everyone has.
This would be true if you can mange to declare wizard war against every member of the covenant at the same time, there is a lack of specificity as to what happens when you try to declare a wizard war and the wizard you are declaring war on is not able to be reached, whether because they are off on adventure, stuck in twilight, or otherwise unavailable. Even if that is delayed it could result in the attack on the aegis being declared an unlawful deprivation of magic on whichever magus you were not in wizard war with at that time.
What the Hibernian tribunal has that is unique enduring wizard wars that are declared against groups like a covenant instead of requiring individual notification.
It is certainly easier to consider the war validly declared in Hibernia.
I could see in some Tribunals much more legal (ahem political) wrangling over that as an issue than in others for sure.
Conclusion is that it does not take a ritual effect to bring down a ritual effect but there are a number of other effects that need to be ritual to affect a ritual.
MoH p.102 - A Day's Grace - The suppressed spell can have a level up to 25 and may be Spontaneous, Ceremonial or Formulaic. Ritual spells are too complex to be suppressed by this spell although should a version of this spell be designed as a Ritual that should be possible.
Corebook p.160 - MuVi Wizard's Boost - ... unless the Wizard's boost is a ritual
Should the limitations of them having to be rituals to affect rituals be removed in an errata?
W
With some of them the issue was making sure you couldn't cast two formulaic spells to get the effects of a ritual spell without using vis.
I stumbled on this today just to add to Notatus' injury
Corebook p.93 "Until (Condition) spells cannot normally be dispelled by magic unless that is part of the condition."
Which means that vanilla Merinita until spells are by default more resilient that the lifelong efforts of Notatus.
I guess that an AoTE that is MuVi by a Merinita to Until is really the best investment vis can buy.
ps. Sorry to have resurrected this one
W
As I understand this question this is a more complex situation.
One thing is that AotH is not totally integrated into Hermetic Theory. So it is highly probable that you cannot use MuVi an ReVi on it.
Other is that the Until duration is dispelled when the caster fall into Twilight. That would end in a low probability/high risk uncertainty in the Aegis. If the caster botches a spell, or during labor work, the Aegis would fall without any previous sign.
And yet it takes a CrCo ritual to undo the effect of a "simple" PeCo wounding spell.
I for one, find it fitting that destruction is easier than creations. Building a house, a castle or an icon can take months or years of work and be undone in hours (or in a castle's case, days) with fire.
There are really two underlying issues here in my estimation. One is a question of what should the "barrier for entry" be regarding the Aegis specifically. The other is how much of a difference should there be between Formulaic and Ritual effects. Both of these questions I believe are important because they have beyond immediate ramifications for Ars as a system and play setting.
The Aegis can be likened to the "City Walls" of a Covenant, in magical terms. With historical city walls there are very good reasons why such enormous amounts of economic investment (time, materials etc.) were spent in creating them... and that simply speaking was that they were very effective. They were not easy to overcome. Walls certainly weren't invulnerable however they did significantly raise the bar of required effort/investment to even contemplate attacking the fortified position they created. Fortifications/Walls were important and their existence significantly altered any strategic calculus as it were regarding the fortified place, attacking it, and any nearby regions that might be defended by them.
The Aegis I believe is "supposed" to provide a similar grade of protection and magical "fortification" in the setting of Ars however allowing it to be casually dispelled for free I believe significantly undermines and devalues that intended impact. Aegis is I believe socially/setting-wise supposed to be a setting defining magical effect not quite but of similar importance to the Parma Magica in being something that helps create and maintain the "Pax Hermetica" that the Order provides/represents in the setting. It does still provide the intended defense from external/non-magi threats and that is still quite effective. However it seems almost trivial for a Vim specialist who is at all interested in doing so to be able to dispel them very effectively and without expending vis. This then means that in the hermetic world that the strategic bar/requirements for attacking your fellows really isn't really raised that much... and it seems like it "should" be.
The other issue is that Ritual magic really often doesn't seem worth the investment of Vis that it costs to cast it. Vis is fundamentally the meta-currency of the game that regulates doing "big" magical things, and that is why vis sources and tracking it as a finite resource are in the game. To make casting the CrCo healing ritual non-trivial. Yet once again Ritual effects often have little to no advantage over Formulaic effects and this seems like something in significant need of correction. What is the upside (beyond the restricted durations/targets etc.) of designing a spell as a Ritual, and spending Vis to cast it? There should be answers to this question that are not "Instant Creo" and/or "Year/Boundary" that give more reasons to design and use Ritual Magic.
Both of these issues I believe are significantly (perhaps not perfectly or completely) addressed by requiring Ritual magic be dispelled only with a Ritual dispel. It addresses the security/safety strategic balance of the Aegis specifically as well as the utility issue of Ritual Magic in general.
You make a mistake, IMO, in that you seem to be thinking the Aegis protects magi. No, they already have the Parma. The Aegis is for mundanes: Without it, no covenant could function "properly", as the servants the magi rely upon would be pestered by faeries / influenced by demons... And it would be trivial for any enemy mage to just Rego your shield grog against you.
For mundanes, and for all the buildings, tools, lab equipment, etc. in the covenant.
The Aegis makes sure you don't get a whole bunch of minor faeries and demons messing around with things you don't want them messing with.
The point is about how effectively it performs its role, not about who it protects. Sure, the Aegis is "for" protecting the more broad collection of assets / people that compose the Covenant. That isn't really in dispute? I'm not certain how this seems relevant to my point, as to me it simply doesn't seem to be. Perhaps you could explain how or why you see this particular point to somehow refute my concerns/perceptions regarding its effectiveness?
It also leaves aside the broader issue re: Ritual Magic. Which ... I mean you don't have to agree with me there either, but the two are intertwined.
You are correct I think in saying that without an effective Aegis no Covenant can properly function, as the Order expects them to in the setting.
There are functional covenants with no Aegis. Those are mostly traveling covenants that don't stay at any particular place for extended periods of time.
Certainly. I don't think it is contentious at all though to say that if they weren't prevented by the interpretation of Boundary from doing so, that they would pretty much all prefer to have an Aegis.
True but we all MuVi the AoTE all the time with WC.
I don't see why a spell similar to wizard boost to get the AoTE to Until duration would be much different.
W
Interesting point here. I don't think I ever noticed that particular detail before. I'm not sure I like a flat immunity to being dispelled.
I would say that an Aegis is imperfectly/incompletely integrated but isn't wholly distinct from Hermetic Magic either. It is after all cast and designed using ReVi like a Hermetic Spell. It simply can't have its parameters altered. (Though people make "bigger" Aegis all the time giving it size bumps. I have wondered in the past whether this is technically prohibited as an alteration.)
I certainly would think that any Hermetic could design a MuVi effect intended to affect an Aegis as they have the requisite understanding of how an Aegis function, being able to design one.
Together these would mean a spell to alter the Aegis would have to be a ritual designed and cast by someone who knows Faerie Magic. Beyond that the caster would also need to be able to successfully complete the simultaneous casting of two ritual spells, and this seems like no small feat re: Concentration! Certainly not every Merinita could pull this off successfully.
That said ... the rewards of success do seem to be considerable.
The consequences of success are also interesting to contemplate if entirely subjective.
Check the errata on MuVi. Iirc, that's the post-first-erratum version that was found to be really problematic. It was removed, putting us back with the more-functional pre-errata version.