training loophole?

Something I noticed is that under practice "being forced to practice a trade in an environment with immediate feedback" could be read that you are forced to practice in that environment, perhaps by circumstances, rather than it having to be a profession that you would not choose, and secondly that there is no skill limit to this kind of advancement. Also there is no requirement that the feedback be made by someone more skilled in the craft or even skilled...

I have a grog who was trained by demons in their trade in order to try and take their soul via the sin of pride. If this character were to try and humble himself by submitting his work to constant scrutiny, would hey get 5xp per season of work instead of the usual exposure experience of 2 per season?

Would normal craftsmen who were working under someone else's management also get this accelerated development? (for example, working under a head cook)

Who is to say that the grog is submitting his work to constant scrutiny and the demon's aren't instead requiring it as part of the deal?

But, I don't consider it a loophole. Practice, compared to training, is a bit more flexible, in that the SQ can be split between multiple abilities which could be used in the course of performing a trade or craft. That flexibility comes at the cost of being limited to an SQ of 5, while Training is a function of the master's Ability Score +3. Practice can also progress indefinitely, but Training ends when the Master's score is reached. Although, at some point, if the ability is used to earn a living, practice will have to give way to exposure when the Ability is used to earn their keep...

Going back to this, I'd be more inclined to treat this as training, unless splitting XP among different Abilities makes sense. The training gain limit is probably a bit higher, and if someone has sold their soul, they should get something out of the deal that is slightly better than practice...

The practice experience wouldn't be gained in any working seasons, so it wouldn't replace the normal exposure experience at all.

Constant feedback means you'll be scrapping and recrafting things all the time, not actually getting lots of productive work done.

I'm not so sure about that- exposure says if you help someone with no feedback- it seems to me that the practice experience should be able top be used during a productive season. Maybe a reduction in productivity... while city and guild does indicate they would not get labor points, if they are serving as someone else's assistant they wouldn't necessarily need to gain labor points...
on the other claw it suggests that apprentices only gain exposure experience when helping the magus, who presumably could give immediate feedback...
can a season of training instead of teaching count as the one season of instruction for an apprentice? This might be more beneficial to the apprentice, especially if the magus has a low to non existent teaching skill.

I'd say yes, with the caveat being that the Arts cannot be trained.

The real question is who is going to challenge the assumption?

The thing is, though, for training to be better than teaching you're talking about a magus with such a lousy base to be teaching from. We're talking incomprehensible, negative communication, etc. - because 1-on-1 teaching is a base of 9xp, modified by communication, virtues/flaws and teaching ability.

A magus with communication -1 and no teaching ability still teaches 8xp/season, and it really wouldn't be hard (5xp) to boost that up to 10xp/season (teaching 1 + specialisation).

IMO training instead of teaching is all about advantage to the magus not 'giving up' a season of their time; and as such there's a lever right there for potential prosecution.

....or the magus could simply lack the Teaching ability, without which you cannot teach, according to David.
Now, admittedly, even a single XP in teaching changes this, and any responsible magus would presumably take care to have atleast that, if not teaching 1+, but we all know that there are going to be exceptions, neh?

Can you cite that, please?

This raises something of a problem for a master passing his Arts down. Arts cannot be trained by RAW, only taught. And there becomes a chicken and egg problem of how does one gain that single xp in teaching? Teaching, IMO, isn't a knowledge ability, which should preclude it being used if there isn't any xp in the ability.

Apparently I can't. I was sure I'd seen him write that somewhere.
Hopefully that'll teach me to check my sources before posting on the internet.

Less of a problem than one might think - it would simply mean that magi need atleast 1 XP in teaching before they take an apprentice.
Thus even a low-quality book on teaching would be useful. This is after all a literate society.

Chicken and Egg indeed, but that's the case for every knowledge, really.

True, but one can experience something directly and put experience into the associated Lore/knowledge Ability. With teaching, this is a bit different, but as you say, that even the poorest source can give 1 xp.

However, even if David Chart had said it, and it were in errata that Teaching is an Ability that cannot be used without having XP in it, then I'd HR it away. Teaching is much more nuanced than knowing how to teach. It requires paying attention to feedback from the students, to see if they are absorbing the information the way it is being presented, and if not, changing course. Perhaps this was less common in the Medieval Paradigm, but I think it still happens. You can teach with a score of 0, IMO.

It would seem to me that exposure alone while an apprentice and doing work in the lab assisting the master would give a person the opportunity to gain the minimum one XP in Teaching. Basically they are learning by example.

I would be okay extending this into the player character years past gauntlet, with the rational that it wasn't until the maga started thinking of how she would teach her first apprentice (or student in other matters) that she truly understood the nature of what being a teacher was about.

Side note, our covenant has a very nice tractus on teaching if you would like to borrow it. 10 XP worth

It also depends on the underlying skill. An older magus with magic theory 9, for example, can impart 12 xp per season of training, and may not have ever taken a skill in teaching (teaching is listed as a general ability, with no asterisk, so it may be used at level 0.

Lets say a magus with no teaching ability and a MT of 9 chooses to train his apprentice rather than teach, because he feels the student would learn faster that way (rightly or wrongly, it doesn't matter).

Who is going to haul him before a Tribunal and challenge his choice?

The most likely answer to that one would be the apprentice themselves, and if your freshly gauntlet'd apprentice is hauling you before a tribunal and charging you with deprivation of magical power, there's a whole lot more interesting going on story-wise than your choice of tuition methods.

Either that, or someone is poking their nose into your affairs in a way that means there's again a greater story at work - at which point the question may well come to tribunal, and is probably going to be decided less by 'right' and more by politics.

The other point is: if someone is snooping into your apprentice that much and notices you're spending time boosting their MT, you're just making that apprentice more appealing to a passing Bonisagus. The snooper who clearly means you trouble is going to have an easier time with that route than pushing a tribunal case.

And if the magus in question is House Bonisagus with MT 9, has no teaching, has no friends for fostering, etc. ?

Then he gets to train his apprentice in magic theory, while his housemates tease him for his lack of teaching ability. :smiley: