Noticed we have more than one spell here in MuCo that creates, effectively, chimaerae or modified creatures.
Example 1: I want to transform into a size +4 mouse to scare elephants. How does this work? It should be possible in Hermetic Magic. Is it as easy as turning into an elephant with magnitudes for size? Do I need to include extra magnitudes for an unreal creature?
Example 2: I want to turn into a sea-lion with tentacles and a venomous beak. Probably possible, but how do I stat out the spell's magnitudes?
Example 3: Clearly, I should turn into a manticore. Winged beast, barbed tail, rending fangs and claws.
I decided to create a new thread for outside input as well as to better guide our conversation to a final conclusion on our numerous chimerical spells.
I feel, like one should find the base first. For a chimera, we're talking about a 'bird', as that's the higher base, and add something like complexity magnitudes.
Same for the sea lion. I think a fish is a higher magnitude.
How many complexity magnitudes? That can vary. The manticore's spikes should definitily add one.
I like the idea of a base form at highest, +1 magnitude per change. So a manticore would be base 20 as a flying beast, +1 for the the wings on a lion-body, +1 for the weird spiked tail....
I believe you should have to look at the appropriate MuAn Bases for the extreme changes. Those are often high enough that the spell would shift from MuCo(An) to MuAn(Co).
They are:
MuAn Base 15 'Change an animal in a major unnatural way' (give a horse claws, fangs and scaly armored skin)
MuAn Base 25 'Radically change an animal in an unnatural way' (give a horse wings)
MuAn(Fo) Base 25 'Give an animal a "magical" ability' (fire breathing)
Breaking them down, the Base 15 looks to give animals abilities which are within the same general transformation class as it is (land to land, fish to fish, bird to bird, etc). The first Base 25 is for giving animals abilities which are not within the same general transformation class (fish or bird to land, etc). The final one is fairly self explanatory.
Let us look at a Manticore. The fantasy and historical mythic versions are different, though for winged you are generally looking at the fantasy version. So for this Manticore you need all of these Bases:
MuCo(An) Base 10 or 20: This depends on if you count it as a Land Animal or Bird, using Land since its body is a lion and it won't be the highest so not really a difference in the cost.
MuAn Base 15: Really only needed if you are considering upping the capability of its natural weapons and armor (not the tail). Since this is supposed to be a tough and powerful man-eater, then yes.
MuAn Base 25: Radically changed hybrid form to get the wings
MuAn(Pe) Base 25: This is for the tail, in its most powerful form. Barbed, venomous, able to fire the bards as a ranged attack. Since this is venom the requisite is Perdo.
That gives you a Mu(Pe)An(Co) Base 25 spell that has three other Bases. You need at least three more Mags, which could be +1 Corpus & +2 Complex or +3 Complex. Size is most likely not needed. You are looking at a spell that is level 40 before the R/D/T is even taken into account which is very hard to cast.
Dropping the tail down to a barbed stabbing tail changes it to a MuAn(Co) Base 25, +2 Complex spell so level 35 before R/D/T which is still fairly hard to cast.
EDIT: Since Manticore have a human face, I believe the +1 Corpus Requisite and slightly lower Complex would be the appropriate combination.
For a spell that turns a target into a chimera, still maintaining the ability to cast (human face), I have no issue. With Per, Diam, the final level would be 40-45 (depending on the version), 45-50 with Sun duration, so still under the ritual limit to turn oneself into a powerful fighting machine, with flying capacity, range attack and spell casting.
Sure, requisits making it hard to pull without a focus, but it would be a nice schtik to have upon one sleeve.
We have a general consensus (Highest base with +1 complexity for each change) on Chimerae. Nobody's said anything against my fourteen-foot-tall mouse though.
To clarify, I'm not trying to specificaly example those three ideas, but instead trying to get our Grimoire a guideline for how to stat out 'Muto Corpus to turn into a seventeen foot tall snakemonkey with acidic spit' spells. And turning into a griffon.
Also, for my fellow Grimoireans, seeking consensus:
If MuAn 15 can change an animal in a major way, then MuCo 15 can change a human. This'll give a human a 'battleform', as per Steed of Vengeance.
If MuAn 25 can radically change an animal, then MuCo 25 should radically change a human. This'll give a human wings and six arms.
We can add extra magnitudes for really complex forms.
Base 20 and part would turn the human's arms into wings. Also, since you're using the base to turn a human into a bird, it's not going to be able to add extra arms.
You seem to have added Part and 'Extra Magnitudes for more arms' into the base, instead of modifiers on the final spell magnitude. It isn't a higher base than I suggested using Animal, it's a lower base with a bunch of extra effect magnitudes, some of which are not appropriate for the base.
While you can fairly easily use most Corpus Bases as Animal Bases, you generally have to think about going from Animal to Corpus. This is because there are several Animal Bases which are lower for doing the same thing as a Corpus Base. If you allow any Animal Base then of course you would always choose the cheaper one over the more expensive Corpus.
So the order of operation for A to C should be:
"Does C already have this Base"
"If yes, use that Base"
"If no, does it have a close enough Base that could be made to work?"
"If that is also no, then you may consider using an A Base"
So one nice thing about Ironboundtome spells is we can go to his site and look at them including a bunch of stuff that didn't make it into the spell text.
For 'Form of the Agile Leviathan' he actually list out 8 abilities that it is supposed to have. I would say none of them are "magical" though I feel it should be "Radical".
MuCo(An) Base 20: Change human into fish is needed.
MuAn Base 25: Radically change a fish in an unnatural way feels appropriate to make a monster.
+1 Size: His description is up to Size +4.
+1 Corpus Requisite: Maintains "arms" and "legs", along with its water breathing being auxiliary. He specifically calls out "it allows the lungs and voice to potentially still be present".
+1 Complexity: This is to cover any of the changes not covered by the "Monstrous Form" and Corpus Requisite.
This gives us a MuAn(Co) 50, Base 25, +2 Sun, +1 Corpus Requisite, +1 Size, +1 Complexity.
You shouldn't need procedural magic - turning into a fish then enlarging the fish then making arms grow on the fish. That's what +1 X requisite and +1 additional effects are for. The important is weighing which effect is the larger, then adding requisites and magnitudes from there.
Actually, Ranulf does this a lot. For example, creating a flame servant (with Conflagrative Servant) or a flame structure( with Topiary of Flames) and then using Flames of Stone ( MoH p115) on it to make it solid
IMHO, this is a characteristic of experienced magi: having spells that build and expand on what they already have to do more