Transvestite Flaw

Having compassion for others is NOT a flaw of any sort. I am very disturbed and disgusted by some of you. This is all evidence that "Transvestite" should be removed asap. Just poof, gone from all future printings of the books.

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Are you being deliberately ironic? Compassionate does exist as a flaw because it limits character options.

An example. A wizard in a conflict sets an orphanage on fire and runs away. A character without the "compassionate flaw" can decide the orphanage is someone else's problem and continue the wizard war. They could also stop and help put out the fire if they wanted to . Choices abound.
The character with the flaw compassionate helps out the orphanage, and if he does not, the SG can say actually, you help out the orphanage. This is a limit on the character, thus the -1.

Transvestite should be removed because it's not worth the trouble. I feel it's hypocritical to remove it without removing a bunch of other flaws, however, if I was in Atlas's position, I'd choose to be the hypocrite.

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Why not just remove it and, if the group is comfortable with playing more authentic levels of medieval discrimination, have a character who takes it take Social Handicap? Similar to the reaction against atheists and egalitarians in the era, it's the reaction against the non conforming individual that's the flaw. Unless I'm mistaken, it was originally introduced in Shamans so that non-binary people, which many shamans were, could be represented.

That way, the discrimination that non-binary people faced in the time period has a mechanical effect, -3 to social rolls, if the group feels comfortable with playing that. Non-binary individuals could be represented in character descriptions and role-playing them. Does that sound reasonable or am I missing something?

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Hidden gender is both historical and a trope of the Middle Ages. It should not be no more white-washed away than slave, pagan or other unsavory bits of the Era.

Finding a better name is fine, cancelling it is not.

EDIT: just to be clear... asking for an improvement such as renaming or covering a wider set of cases is a positive solution. Asking for a destructive suppression is bad manner.

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A few things here, having just caught up on most of this thread:

  1. changing the name is great, changing it from the Latin (trans=cross, vestite=dresser) to an english equivalent is so out of theme though.
  2. perhaps instead of "gender non conformist" we simply go with "non-conformist" and allow this to be about gender, sexual preference, or whatever else will generate backlash from the local intolerant majority. You could then even set the game in pagan Lithuania and have Christians be the non-conformists, its adjustable to your setting.
    3)If we take this route it may require a minor and major version so that Pagan (major flaw) can be included- or perhaps include a major and minor version of each (for example someone who dresses as a woman while having a beard can be the major version while a woman successfully masquerading as a man can be the minor flaw).

Also I will point out that while transgender and transvestite are very different things in modern society the distinctions diminished in a society where gender reassignment or adjusting gender expression was not possible, either from a surgical perspective or a social perspective. Of course in a magical setting where it might be more possible to switch gender expression the distinctions likely reappear, but this is one more point of anachronism where the traditional medieval world cannot coexist with magic.

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See wiki on transvestism especially for this:

The word has undergone several changes of meaning since it was first coined and is still used in a variety of senses. Today, the term transvestite is commonly considered outdated and derogatory, with the term cross-dresser used as a more appropriate replacement.[4][5][6]. This is because the term transvestite was historically used to diagnose medical disorders, including mental health disorders, and transvestism was viewed as a disorder, but the term cross-dresser was coined by the transgender community.[4][7].

So it helps to follow up on the history of terminology and not just use some cookie-cutter translations.
I might add, that cross-dresser to me sounds pretty matter-of-fact: describing a behaviour, and not a motivation or imagined medical background.

Anyway, I do not insist on using it as the replacement for Tranvestite as the ArM5 Flaw's name, if somebody has a better idea than the community supposed to have coined it.

I'd remove the flaw. If anyone misses it and wants a story for his character about this, there are plenty of other tools at hand. And definetively some people can be hurt by it, and probably to argue them that flaws aren't really flaws but a mechanical construct to build stories over characters is not going to help at all.

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There's a lot of back and forth, but in my opinion the biggest problem is that its a personality flaw.
First, by categorizing it into 'personality flaw' then the implication is its in their mind. It should probably be put in as a primary option of the Social Handicap flaw. I have a ... similar issue with the Judged Unfairly flaw, because that doesn't feel like its at all tied to their personality, but I somewhat like it as a flaw.

Just a note that this thread is definitely not for criticising Paizo's decisions. I'm a fan of their work (I would be a fan of Jason's work in particular if I paid more attention to the credits page…), and I think they are making a lot of very sensible decisions with regard to language use and the presentation of material in a fictional setting.

On the other hand, I do not think they are making the only possible sensible decisions, and Ars Magica is importantly different from Pathfinder and Starfinder. Our solutions are likely to overlap, but there are almost certain to be differences.

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I'm trying to find more instances of hidden identities. Something that has as much "reveal" as gender.

I see gender divide, class divide, religious divide and nothing else at the moment. It comes down to covering 2 role/status and bringing out the one you're not dressed for.

  • playing the role of a shaman, you forget how to act like a man.
  • playing the role of a master mason (this include widow taking over their husband's title, iirc), you forget how to act like a woman.
  • playing the role of an usurer, you forget how to act like like a christian.
  • playing the role of a serf, you forget how to act like an ordained priest.
  • playing the role of a villein, you forget how to act like a noble.

As long as you get the penalty for transcending your natural role, the Flaw works.

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Thank you so much David. I really appreciate the public support.

And you’re absolutely right! These two games are in very different places and have very different needs, and that might call for very different solutions. Huge respect for your open call for dialog on all these threads!

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Just wanted to thank everyone for their thoughtful replies. I certainly didn't intend to cast Snap of Wokeness or 'cancel' Ars Magica through some dread ritual. (Which requires a level 50 Perdo Lusus ritual, well beyond the powers of a newly gauntled maga in this tribunal.) The modest proposal made was elimination of a single flaw; and good hearted people can certainly disagree on that proposal.

I really appreciate the comments from @David_Chart and @Doctorcomics, which explained the extra industry issues involved in changing text for an active gaming community. The flaw in question seemed like a 'rule' for errata mainly because it is part of the core 5th edition rulebook. Since it's part of character creation, it's actually one of the very first pseudo-rules that new players encounter.

Over-simplifying their replies, the cautions from @silveroak, @ezzelino, @loke,and others all involve worries about the medieval paradigm. But they differ on the practical response. Silveroak, Loke, and Tellus point out that the flaw in question is just one aspect of larger game design and setting. But --correct me if I'm wrong-- they agree this particular flaw should be errat'ed.

Tugdual & Ezzelino strongly advocate the flaw be retained, as it fits both setting and paradigm of mythic europe. Respectfully, I think they miss the successful precedent of eliminating female gender as a game flaw in Ars Magica. All of their objections could have been raised verbatim a few editions ago when that change occurred. So we have a natural experiment here... If choosing inclusion over verisimilitude worked for sex, if the game and community are better now then they were before, then follow the precedent and open things up for gender as well. On the other hand, if you think getting to play with a broader group of friends, wives, nieces, and sisters didn't improve the game, follow that lesson.

The best solution I've read here is the one articulated by @Marko_Markoko, @rgd20, and @EthanSteele. Separate the ascriptive characteristic from the flaw, and let the player decide whether that characteristic is a source of stories and mechanical difficulties.

This solution reminds me of Lucy Liu's character from Kill Bill, O-ren Rishi, who explained to the Crazy 88 that they could bring up any taboo topic with her, except how a Chinese-American woman managed to take over the Yakuza. Suspend a little disbelief.. turb and grog aren't even Latin words.

This works not just for the transvestite flaw, but for some other excluded identities. Open ended flaws like Judged Unfairly, Outsider, and Social Handicap are easily customized if the troupe wants to explore medieval prejudices. But the rulebook doesn't need to dictate the precise benefits and penalties. Some players might want their race, religion, gender or sexuality to defined the playing world. Others don't, sometimes because that's exhausting enough in real life. :smile:


To lighten the tone of discussion a bit, I've followed up on @ezzelino's prompt for suggested character builds for players who do want to explore gender issues beyond the binary in their game world.

(1) Rupaulus ex Verditius
Virtues: +3 Flawless Magic,+3 Ways of the Town,+1mmf(Hair), +1 Puissant Craft (Wigmaking,) +1 Performance Magic (Drag), +1 Special Circumstances (wearing elegant gowns), +0 Verditius Magic
Flaws: -3 Waster of Vis, -3 Necessary Condition (wearing female attire), -3 Overconfident, -1 No sense of direction
This fierce Theban mage first manifested his Gift while dressed in his mothers evening gown. His rural Moroccan family was confused by the unusual behavior, and happy to apprentice him to a Verditius weaver in Constantinople. Despite the social penalties of the gift, Rupaulus thrived in his new cosmopolitan covenant. His occasional arch and flamboyant dress and mannerisms still draw a few stares, but disguise the casting of spells.
The player of Rupaulus opts to make cross-dressing central to this character's magic and personality. But his selection of flaws indicates that neither ethnic background, nor gender presentation, should trigger mechanical or story difficulties. The storyguide may cause trouble for his magic by creating circumstances that part him with his casting tools (mostly cosmetics) and outfits.

(2) Cerb of Bjornaer
Virtues: +3 FlexFormMagic, +1 Lightning Reflexes, +1 Keen Sense of Smell, +1 Personal Vis Source (Antlers), +1 Animal Ken, +1 Gift of Venus, +1 Inoffensive to animals, +1 Alluring to animals, + 0 Heartbeast
Flaws: -3 Magic Addiction, - 1 Pack Mentality/Follower, -3 Low self esteem, -3 Curse of Venus
Cerb was a sociable and popular apprentice, the daughter of two prominent Bjornaer magi. But the timing of her birth mean that she didn't undergo the ritual of twelve years, and discover her heartbeast, until she was nearly seventeen. Cerb was already insecure from growing up without an animal form in a community where manifesting one was a mark of maturity. She tended to attract attention for her beauty rather than her magical potential. The elders from Clan Ilfetu still can't explain why this delicate young woman found her inner heartbeast was a particularly large and virile male stag, quite well-endowed when it came to... antlers. Subsequent confusion about her sex and gender crushed Cerb's self confidence.
The player of Cerb wants to highlight her character's distress and ambivalence about gender identity. The selection of flaws pulls this character between the human and animal world, neither one offering them complete acceptance. Cerb's complex blessing of venus ensures that potential suitors are plentiful, but their gender never matches the preferences of the compatible human/heartbeast form. Cerb could be played as a straight female maga with a confusing male heartbeast, or a transman who comes out in late adolescence, or more allegorically as neither of these.

(3) Archmagus Pan Panopoly of House Merinita
Virtues: +3 Chthonic Magic, +1mmf(self transformation), +1 Fairy Blood: Whisper (-2 on all knowledge rolls to learn information about Pan), +1 Cyclic Magic: night, +1 Improved characteristics, +1 Puissant Faerie Magic, +2 Quiet Magic(x2), + 0 Fairy Magic, *+1 Charm Magic, *+3 Symbolic Magic
Flaws: -3 Deficient Intellego, -1 Loose Magic, -3 Study Requirement, -1 Ability Block:Martial, - 1 Incomprehensible, -1 Weak Parens, *-3 Unnatural Magic, *-1 Harmless Magic
Elusive as a whisper, Archmagus Pan is one of the most mysterious magi in the Provencal Tribunal. Their archmagus challenge "discover my birth name" has never been solved. Pan triggers chthonic magic with acts that befuddle and disrupt rather than directly harm. A few years back, Pan requested that other members of the tribunal use the pronouns pe and possessive pronoun pair. Most complied, considering this a reasonable request from a harmless elder Merinita. But a few magi objected strenuously, claiming the change would upset the balance of sympathetic magic. Since then, those using Pan's preferred pronouns have enjoyed a remarkable run of good fortune.
Pan's player wants to explore the magical implications of non binary identity. They've selected flaws& virtues that offer Pan both benefits and deficits from being hard for other characters to understand. They know that some NPCs will consider Pan wicked, and want to overcome the chaos that this brings.

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OC behaviours used to explicitly be a Flaw. Some of us hunted it down and killed it with fire.

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I think the flaw can be removed because the things we want from it can be reworked. Want to play Saint Marinos? Well, she has Dark Secret (is a woman ordained as a monk). Want to play a shaman that's outside the gender norms of their society? Is this a Flaw, actually, in that culture? If it's because you are in a different culture, that's Outsider. Are you a woman who wants to dress as a man and be very in the face about it not being a Dark Secret, Gentleman Jack style? That's Personality: Rebellious. Want to be a woman, dress as a man, and -not- have a hard time about it? That's not a Flaw.

Want to be biomale and dress as a woman? Same as above, except in some parts of Mythic Europe, there's no way of telling you're biomale, because of full body veiling (Venice, for example).

This is just my five second take, but my point is - does the player want a Flaw, and if they want a Flaw, -why- do they want the Flaw? Give them that.

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Those are all great character ideas.

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Lovely designs!

Turb is a Latin word. It's an abbreviation of Contubernium.

(Sure - I made that up, but I made it up and had it published in Third Edition, so...).

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Timothy Ferguson wins the internet today.

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My interest for knowledge lost ... or as Timothy Ferguson aptly put it, "hunted down and destroyed with fire", is piqued.

In which editions was "female gender" a game Flaw? I fail to recall seeing it in 2nd, 3rd or 4th edition, despite having played a number of female characters. It seems strange to me that my munchkin gaming table of the time would not have flocked to it with the same eagerness we displayed for orphanhood... but then it was a very, very long time ago.

That's awesome! Tell the truth... you steal faerie vitality whenever it gets cited don't you ?

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The idea that a desire for increased historicity would be a roadblock to removing or altering the virtue is pretty bizarre, not only because (as folks have pointed out) this is a setting that by its nature takes liberties with historicity or because people have different ways to enjoy Ars, but because the current Flaw being applied in any sort of general sense to Mythic Europe is itself ahistorical. Granted, my familiarity lies mostly with cultures and histories that exist on the geographic edges of the Order - al-Andalus, the Levant, and Muslim Anatolia - but just the existence of differences kinda negates the use of the "not historical" argument for universally punishing gender nonconforming people. There are tons of examples from history and period culture - one is the openly masculine coded and garbed warrior women of the TĂźrkmen frontier epics of Western Anatolia (who were decidedly not "regarded as [freaks]" even in a deeply patriarchal medieval culture.) The epic hero Kan Turali rejects the conventionally feminine marriage partners offered as being not to his taste and goes searching for a warrior woman - explicitly called a "man-woman" later in the epic.

'You don't want a girl; you want a dare-devil hero to look after you, and [together] you can eat and drink and be merry.' 'That is so, my dear father,' he replied, 'but you'll go and get me some pretty dressed-up doll of a Turcoman girl, whose belly will split if I should suddenly lean over and fall on her.' 'Son,' said Kanli Koja, 'finding the girl is up to you; I'll see that you're fed and provided for.'

The girl he finds, Saljan the 'man-woman', is certainly not ostracized - she's a princess of Trebizond (Theban Tribunal represent). There's a lot of high adventure before they run off together but another relevant part comes in when Kan first spies his bride to be armed and armored; he's so moved by the sight that he makes prayerful sujud right on the spot.

Kan Turali opened his eyes, he raised his eyelids and saw his bride on horse-back, dressed for battle, spear in hand. He kissed the ground and said, 'I hold the faith and I believe; my wish has been granted in the court of God Most High.'

It's not an isolated case either. Nomad noble Banu Chichek gleefully wrestles her beloved Beyrek, who is impressed and sort of scared by her "warrior strength". The daughter of the Caesar in the Battalname slaughters an army alongside the eponymous hero. Just over the border in Byzantium, there's the Epic of Digenes Akritas - the half-Arab, half-Greek frontiersman whose exploits strongly parallel those of his TĂźrkmen counterparts - that features the ambiguously masculine raider lord Maximo. These legends are in currency depending on area of Mythic Europe, particularly among the Oghuz peoples in the Transylvania and Theban Tribunals and their neighbors, and someone wanting to build a character around them would definitely be let down by the Flaw as is.

It's also not just myth. al-Andalus is full of situations concerning ambiguous gender, from beauty ideals favoring what could be called androgenous markers to the liminal spaces occupied by eunuchs to concubines and courtesans who dressed like men habitually. A useful discussion of Persian gender norms and their fluid nature before modernity can be found Najmabadi's Women with Mustaches, Men Without Beards which tbf is focused on the early modern and the end of amrad sexuality with the introduction of Victorian norms to Iran but certainly explains the existing culture well. Hell, we have examples of literal legal gender changes from this period (the Mamluk age is a little after the conventional start but certainly is in full force before the close of the 13th century) in areas covered in 5e game books:

...In the early Mamluk period the transformation of girls into boys is a cause for public celebrations...there are later cases in which courts are asked to confirm a female sexual identity for persons who, by all outer appearances, were physically male.

The citation for the above being Tamer el-Leithy's “Of Bodies Chang’d to Various Forms . . . : Hermaphrodites and Transsexuals in Mamluk Society” (apologies for language)

Realize now I may have rambled a bit but yea I just don't understand the historicity angle, which anyways is not good enough as an argument even if it was correct. Sure there are many cultures represented in Ars books that hew closer to the way the Flaw as is understands the question, even a majority of them probably, but then there's an even stronger case behind using some of the more flexible fixes listed above that allow characters to be tailored to the culture they are from and the experience they want out of the game. "But history" - as it usually is in these sorts of arguments - is more about myopia, limited research, and a simple unwillingness to listen to other (often minority) voices.

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