Triamore : Are there up-to-date 5th statistics?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Hello.
I'm preparing a saga with the excellent material in the 4th edition's "Triamore: The Covenant at Lucien's Folly" supplement.

As I see in the 5th "The Guardians of the Forests - The Rhine Tribunal" the introduction of Triamore and some related Triamore's magus, I suppose that the covenant enters in the official Ars Magica canon. But the NPC, Covenant statistics and other Virtues/Flaws are 4th.

Before starting to translate all the stuff in 5th (witch it seems a long work), I was wondering if this work had not been already done by another players who played Triamore with 5th edition.

If "no", are there some examples of close Triamore NPC in some other 5Th supplements (for example "Through the Aegis: Developed Covenants" or so)?

Thank you for reading and Happy New Year.

2

I played in a 5th edition game at Triamore. I'll ask the GM if he can help.

If there are any NPC writeups which will help you, they'll be in this index: atlas-games.com/pdf_storage/ ... Hermes.pdf

3

To my knowledge there are no 5th ed canon stats for Triamore and no stats of the magi other than the meagre information in GotF page 47.
I haven't read the 4th ed Triamore book in detail (not anything I can remember though) so I can't say if this differs from the 5th ed definitions.

Through the Aegis features the Rhine Tribunal second spring covenant Collem Leonis, but has no direct link to Triamore. Collem Leonis is specified to have "no significant links" to Triamore, while opening up for possible connections due to the relative proximity of Triamore, Daria la Gris' plans for the Lotharingian Tribunal. Also, Collem Leonis' member Julia of Tremere is likely to cross paths with Daria due to Apfel Gild activities, but need not have any active or significant plots.

But now I want to read the 4th ed Triamore book!

4

This can be arranged.

5

My Triamore GM admitted he mostly made it up as he went. But I noodled around on this all day and this is what I have to show for it: Daria le Gris of Tremere, for ArM5.

Daria of Tremere
Age 67 (+8 longevity ritual)
Confidence Score 3 (8)
Warping 5

Int +3, Per 0, Pre +1, Com 0, Str -1, Sta 0, Dex 0, Qik +1

Virtues & Flaws Hermetic Magus, Master; the Gift; Minor Magical Focus: Certamen; Apple Gild Trained, Method Caster, Book Learner, Clear Thinker, Personal Vis Source, Piercing Gaze, Second Sight, Strong Parens, Strong Willed; Ability Block: Martial, Enemies: Rival Guilds, Count Gaumond, and Archbishop Radolfus, Oversensitive: Disrespect, Reclusive, Susceptible to Infernal Power, Unlucky, Weakness: Orphans

Abilities Area Lore: Triamore 3 (library), Artes Liberales 3 (rhetoric), Awareness 2 (social), Civil & Canon Law 2 (Holy Roman Empire), Code of Hermes 2 (tribunal procedures), Concentration 4 (spells), Etiquette 3 (nobility), Finesse 4 (precision), French 5 (Norman), Gaming* 4 (chess), German 3 (expansive vocabulary), Infernal Lore 2 (demons), Intrigue 2 (negotiation), Latin 5 (Hermetic), Leadership 3 (intimidation), Magic Theory 5 (26) (inventing spells), Order of Hermes Lore 2 (politics), Parma Magica 5 (Mentem), Penetration 4 (Auram), Philosophiae 2 (natural), Ride 1 (grace), Second Sight 1, Teaching 4 (10) (apprentices)

Arts Cr 17, In 8, Mu 12, Pe 12, Re 23; An 8, Aq 5, Au 15, Co 7, He 10, Ig 5, Im 10, Me 5, Te 19, Vi 12

Formulaic Spells
M denotes a +3 bonus for Method Caster has been included
Charge of the Angry Winds (CrAu 15) +35M
Circling Winds of Protection (Cr[Re]Au 20) +35M
Clouds of Rain and Thunder (CrAu 25) +35M
Pull of the Skybound Winds (CrAu 30) +35M
Incantation of the Lightning (CrAu 35) +35M
True Sight of the Air (InAu 15) +26M
The Cloudless Sky Returned (PeAu 45) +30M
Chirurgeon's Healing Touch (CrCo 20, Ritual) +32M
Wall of Protecting Stone (CrTe 25) +39M
Stone Tell of the Mind that Sits (InTe 30) +30M
Guardian of Stone (Mu[Re]Te[An] 40) +23M; see below
Obliteration of the Metallic Barrier (Pe[Re]Te 20) +34M
Invisible Hand of the Thief (ReTe 20) +45M; MoH 93
Creeping Chasm (ReTe 35) +45M
Invisible Eye Revealed (InVi 20) +23M
Circular Ward Against Demons (ReVi 25) +44M

Unusual Spells
Guardian of Stone, Mu(Re)Te(An) 40
This spell transforms a stone statue of an animal into the beast it depicts. The statue can be up to ten cubic paces in size. The transformed beast obeys the caster's commands and has physical abilities appropriate to its species, but has only Cunning, no magical powers, and no Might. Due to experimentation when this spell was first invented, the creature cannot travel more than thirty paces from the spot where it was transformed. If the beast is killed, it returns to stone.

This spell was invented by Anaxagoras, Daria's pater, who used it to gain a +8 bonus to his lab total when enchanting various stone guardians around Triamore. Daria invented it from his lab text, and so her version has the same flaw his does.
(Base 5, +1 Stone, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +1 Size, +1 Animal, +1 Rego)

Daria's Lab

Size +4, Refinement +2, General Quality +3, Upkeep +5, Safety +2, Warping 0, Health +3, Aesthetics +7

Cr +1, Ig +1, Im +1; Teaching +1, Texts +5

Virtues & Flaws Extensive Stores, Greater Expansion, Highly Organized, Magic Item: Bookstand of Hespera, Magical Heating, Magical Lighting, Opulent, Spacious, Spotless

Lab Total = Te + Fo + 13 (Int 3 + MT 5 + Aura 2 + lab 3) + 1 inventing spells + apprentice + lab specializations

Conversion Notes
Daria is 67 years old, is a Master, and has taught two apprentices, the last of which took his Gauntlet eight years ago. Since Master status is required before a Rhine magus can teach an apprentice, Daria must have achieved it by the age of 29, five years after her Gauntlet. This is astonishingly early. She was probably the youngest Master ever in the Rhine Tribunal. She doesn't write books on the Art and has no unique spells, so presumably her title was granted based on her mastery of Rego. She probably focused obsessively on this Technique in the years after her Gauntlet and was aided by intense politics on the part of her House.

Daria has too much XP for her age, using the official advancement rules. I've given her Strong Parens to represent access to Triamore's library during her apprenticeship, and her Intrigue and Order of Hermes Lore supported the Gild Training Virtue, but even so I had to bend the rules to avoid reducing her Arts. Rather than give her 30 XP a year, I presumed that, for three seasons out of every year, she read a book in Triamore's library with an average Quality of 10, to which her Book Learner Virtue added 3. For thirty years, her fourth season was spent teaching her two apprentices and acquiring exposure in Teaching. For the remaining thirteen years, that fourth season was spent refining or improving her lab (four seasons), inventing a spell (eight seasons), and making her own longevity ritual (one season), all of which gave her exposure in Magic Theory.

Her score in Gaming was represented with a new Accelerated Ability, one probably fairly common among members of House Tremere.

Notably, Daria has neither a talisman nor a familiar, she knows few spells, and most of those she does know are high level. Her high Arts, largely wasted, show all the signs of a maga who seldom has to worry about penetrating magic resistance and who is probably working towards enchanting a talisman, probably a crown with high level Rego Auram and Terram effects. If she has some spare seasons, she should spend them learning multiple low level spells in Creo and Rego, Auram and Terram.

Noncombatant was removed from her Flaws, because House Tremere is a militant House now and they don't accept Noncombatants. She can, however, take Ability Block: Martial because magi fight with magic, not weapons. Lost Love was removed because it wasn't supported in her background (but was supported in Remi's). Another minor Flaw was needed, and it could not be a Story or Personality Flaw (she already has three of the latter), so Unlucky was chosen as something, if not supported by the source material, at least not contradicted. Two of her spells, Opening the Earth's Pore (which creates a volcano) and Thief of Breath (which takes the air from a targets lungs, creating fatigue and fear), could not be easily converted to ArM5, but might be effects she is planning on enchanting into her talisman.

I didn't change her age or the known facts of her biography, instead trying to rationalize all known facts about her.

2 Likes
6

Very nice, interesting piece of work.

Without having looked at the 4th ed book I have a few comments on her stats:
*Confidence score of 3 seems unlkikely, IIRC 2 is the (normal) maximum?
*Status of Master anf having trained two apprentices...this is problematic and an unfortunate design flaw in GotF, however understandable as both authors, playtesters and editor can miss seemingly little details. But status of Master is defined as normaly taking 30 years, and Imanitos Mendax is mentioned to having achieved this in record time. So it seems reasonable to me that Daria la Gris has not done this. A fix you say? Well, the easiest thing would be for Darie to be 20-25 years older. She is not so old that the risks becoming one of the Tribunal's seniors, which she is not defined as and should not. Otherwise, she can be edited to only having trained one apprentice. This seems an easy fix since this fact has no bearing on anything really. As a more convoluted solution she could ahev trained her two apprentices simultaneously or with an overlap. However this seems unpractical as well as detrimental to her free time, plus in this case she should be known for having done this.
*Int of +3 may not be as necessary in 5th ed as it felt needed to in 4th ed. IMHO 5th ed has more focus on broader characters, while 4th ed had Int used in Study Totals so it was vital for strong magi. As a politician I feel her Prs and Com could need to be better
*An Intrigue score of only 2 seems low for Daria's type.
*A Concentration of 4 seems high, while very practical it may not be as necessay for her as for a combat magus like Philipus Niger (who also has a score of 4)
*Gaming as an Accelerated Ability seems odd. These only otherwise occur for magical skills of hedgies.

But a good piece of work for sure. I really want to read the Triamore book now, and I might have more comments and ideas once I get around to this.

7

Daria's age is linked to the very specific dates in the Triamore book. Yes, the easy way to adjust her would be to make her older. I didn't do that because it would force a wagon load of other changes and ripple throughout the entire book. My goal is to rationalize all known facts about her, not to change known facts. Her two former apprentices also have roles in the Triamore book and so I did not remove either of them.

Her Int, Intrigue, Concentration and all other Abilities and Arts are exactly as they are in the Triamore book.

Confidence can go over 2. Characters can gain Confidence from life events and there are other characters in the ArM5 canon with high Confidence. Daria is princeps of her covenant, the youngest Master in the Rhine, and I thought a 3 suited her. But by all means, reduce it to 2 if you want.

1 Like
8

Remi was impossible to reconcile between the two books. I had to make some hard decisions. Your Saga May Vary.

Remi of Museau of House Jerbiton
Age 46 (+6 longevity ritual made for him while an apprentice)
Confidence Score 1 (3)
Warping 2 (1)

Int +2, Per +2, Pre +2, Com 0, Str +1, Sta 0, Dex 0, Qik 0

Virtues & Flaws Hermetic Magus, Journeyman; the Gentle Gift; Well Traveled; Cyclic Magic (Positive), Fast Caster, Gild Trained, Improved Characteristics, Magic Sensitivity, Quiet Magic, Warrior; Creative Block, Cyclic Magic (Negative), Loose Magic, Lost Love, Oath of Fealty, Study Requirement

Abilities Area Lore: Triamore 2 (library), Artes Liberales 1 (logic), Athletics 2 (grace), Awareness 2 (alertness), Bow 2 (longbow), Brawl 2 (fist), Carouse 2 (staying sober), Charm 2 (first impressions), Chirurgery 2 (bind wounds), Concentration 2 (spells), Etiquette 2 (military), Faerie Lore 2 (fey forests), Finesse 2 (precision), Flemish 2 (common usage), Folk Ken 2 (merchants), French 5 (Norman), Hunt 2 (tracking), Latin 4 (Hermetic), Leadership 2 (command), Magic Sensitivity 1, Magic Theory 4 (16) (inventing spells), Music 2 (pipes), Order of Hermes Lore 2 (sigils), Parma Magica 3 (Ignem), Penetration 2 (Creo), Ride 2 (speed), Single Weapon 3 (long sword), Spanish 2 (common usage), Stealth 2 (natural areas), Thrown Weapon 2 (rocks)

Arts Cr 14, In 15, Mu 0, Pe 4, Re 11; An 10, Aq 0, Au 0, Co 0, He 11, Ig 10, Im 0, Me 0, Te 0, Vi 0

Formulaic Spells
Opening the Tome of the Animal's Mind (InAn 25) +25
Hunter's Sense (InAn 30) +25
Cripple the Howling Wolf (PeAn 25) +14
Soothing Voice of the Stableman (ReAn 15) +21
Mastering the Unruly Beast (ReAn 25) +21
Wall of Thorns (CrHe 20) +25
The Bountiful Feast (CrHe 35, Ritual) +26
Converse with Plant and Tree (InHe 25) +26
Lord of the Trees (ReHe 25) +22
Pilum of Fire (CrIg 20) +24
Eyes of the Flame (InIg 35) +25

Remi's Lab

Size +1, Refinement +1, General Quality +1, Upkeep +4, Safety +1, Warping 0, Health +1, Aesthetics +4

An +2, Au +1, He +3, Ig +1; Experimentation +1, Texts +3, Vis Extraction +1

Virtues & Flaws Elevated, Magic Item: Bookstand of Hespera, Magic Item: Prodigious Plant Pot, Magical Heating, Magical Lighting, Menagerie, Pot Plants, Superior Construction, Superior Equipment

Lab Total = Te + Fo + 9 (2 Int + 4 MT + 2 Aura + 1 Lab) + 1 inventing spells + lab specializations

Conversion Notes

Guardians of the Forest labels Remi a Master. There's no way to defend this, based on his history. Remi did not start his apprenticeship until the age of 23, and if he had a standard 15-year apprenticeship that means he has been a Gauntleted magus for only eight years. (Triamore claims he "competed his apprenticeship in only 7 years," but while there are ways for a Hermetic apprenticeship to end early, none of them seem to apply in this case.) He has no distinctive magic, does not write books, and hasn't had time to develop his Arts particularly high. Remi should be a Journeyman. Nevertheless, if you decide he was indeed Gauntleted after only seven years, this should explain why he is called a Master. It doesn't change his XP problems, however.

As written in Triamore, Remi has the Arts and Abilities of a magus twenty years his senior. Daria's point total was almost reconcilable with ArM5, but Remi's is not. Rather than change his age and create potential conflict with the detailed history of Triamore, his Abilities were trimmed (Guardians of the Forest calls him a "polymath" and lists his many skills) and his Arts slashed. He still has all his spells, and can still cast them, albeit with little or no penetration. Once this was done, however, his Poor Formulaic Magic became a crippling impediment, so it was replaced with Loose Magic instead. Remi doesn't have high enough Arts to teach an apprentice, but if you need him to do that anyway, raise all his Arts to the minimum of 5 and handwave it; maybe Ulusterius was a good teacher and Remi has found excellent books in the library. Like Daria, I presumed he read books with an average Quality of 10 for three seasons of every year post-Gauntlet, and spent his fourth season of each year improving his lab or inventing a spell from a lab text.

Remi originally had the spell Mage's Mount, which alleviated the effect of the Gift on a horse. This is contrary to ArM5, where the effect of the Gift cannot be annulled through magic. He's been given the spell Soothing Voice of the Stablehand, from Magi of Hermes, instead. His spell Warmth of the Hearth heated all the air in a room to a comfortable temperate for a season; this effect would now cause Warping on those who spent significant time in the room, so I've instead presumed Remi is responsible for enchanting various hearths in the labs and sanctums of Triamore with a safe, flameless, CrIg effect that grants the Magical Heating virtue. His description in Guardians of the Forest mentions he has many low-level useful spells; this is appropriate to Jerbiton in ArM5, who aren't that much concerned with accumulating power for its own sake, but is in contradiction with his spell list in Triamore. I chose to keep his original spell list, but if he has a few seasons he could spend them learning multiple low-level Herbam and Animal spells.

Remi has been given Gild Trained to help alleviate his XP problem and because he already had the required Area Lore and Order of Hermes Lore. He's been given Lost Love, to represent the lingering commitment to his mundane wife, and Oath of Fealty, which he keeps a secret and which is mentioned in his background

1 Like
9

Christian: Do we change him to Journeyman or?

10

If you guys are already playing Triamore, I'd love to see what you have done with the setting. Of course, the conversions I am doing are only one possible way of approaching it, and my ground zero are the stats in the 4e book. If you've been playing with these characters already, your versions will be much different than mine, especially if they're more influenced by the short descriptions in GotF.

I think my next challenge is the covenant Boons, Hooks, and finances. The covenant's vis sources only amount to 20-30 pawns a year, which is fine for two magi but not enough for a full covenant. The library is a lesser income source, and also a source of vis from magi who come to copy. But the library's sheer scale is staggering; the 4th edition book specifically says the library contains 2,700 volumes, a combination of mundane texts, lab texts, and books on the Arts. This is enormous; the largest library in THROUGH THE AEGIS is 1/20th this size!

The size of the library is not necessarily in need of correction; it is described as one of the top half dozen in the Order, and that's saying something in this setting. But in earlier editions, a library of 2,700 volumes was easier to model. In ArM5, each book has its own entry. Perhaps the rules in TRANSFORMING MYTHIC EUROPE could be used.

1 Like
11

Hello.
Thank you. :smiley:
I am really pleased to see that my question has so many productive responses.
This week, I have a lot of work to do for my boss. But afterwards, I'll surely start to participate at the effort with some of my conversions and drop them here too. :wink:

12

As a brief explanation Tellus and I play in a Rhine saga, somewhat like the "Curse of the Rhine Gorge" setup in GotF only covering a larger area. Triamore is of some interest to us.
Our covenant is situated more or less between Cologne and Dortmund, and while Triamore hasn't been vitally important in the saga (yet) there are some ties, plus it is one of the closest covenants to our location. Well, of the original GotF covenants that is. One of our players thought it would be fun to integrate Collem Leonis from Through the Aegis, even though our saga takes place more or less in the very area Collem Leonis inhabits.
Also, another of our players plays a filius of Daria la Gris'.

So I won't take our internal discussions too far here. As of now I've read up to page 59 of the Triamore book from 4th ed. And I really like it.

My main concern however, is keeping Triamore consistent in and with 5th edition.

Daria la Gris: GotF has strict definitions for achieving the status of Master, and well defined time frames for this. I had not previously looked at Daria la Gris' numbers, and it is correct that at age 67 she should not have been able to train two apprentices, because such an endeavour should not begun until you are a Master, which should take at least 20 years after gauntlet, 30-40 more likely. IMHO it has no effect on Daria if she had only trained a single apprentice. The parts of "Triamore: The covenant at Lucien's folly" I've read hasn't yet convinced me that it is important for her to have trained to apprentices.
I think the "two apprentice" deal is a copy-paste from 4th ed which makes no sense with the 5th ed Rhine tribunal culture and her age of 67.
IMS I think Daria is (per 1220) a 67 year old Master who has trained a single apprentice, who passes his gauntlet in 1221.

Remi of Museau: As a 48 year old master he is likely the youngest master in the Rhine. I don't buy that. 5th ed Remi is not mentioned to have started Hermetic training as an adult, here he is merely defined as a very versatile magus with many mundane abilities. With typical gauntlet around age 25 he is unlikely to be a master yet. Especially when he is so unfocused. And I think apprenticeship shorter than 15 years should be extremely rare.
IMS I think Remi is (per 1220) a 48 year old journeyman, respected to a certain degree for his broad skills but unlikely to achieve status of master anytime soon.

2 Likes
13

You're probably right; removing one of Daria's apprentices would probably cause minimal disruption, and would help her status as Master to be more explicable.

Personally, I like keeping Remi as a guy who didn't become an apprentice till he was 23. His past life as a soldier of fortune is key to his background; that's where he gets his Oath of Fealty and his wife. So I'd keep it. I think he makes a fine Journeyman. But, as always, your Saga may vary.

14

Remi could work ok with only starting apprenticeship at age 23 and finishing it after 7 years. Such things happen when a Hedge Wizard is inducted into the Order - apprenticehip can last even just a few years. This gives him 18 years past gaultlet, and with the Rhine's focus om magical exploits he is likely just en experienced Journeyman.
EDIT: Also, Remi may get the flaw "Hedge wizard" due to this situation, and his Parens' reputation may suffer as well.

Although in this concept of Remi he likely has 'Weak Parens' flaw but probably has virtues like Privileged Upbringing, Educated, Warrior, Arcane Lore, Guild Trained to ensure he is skilled in a broad range of subjects but poor in magic. Weak parens is a way to lower the total spell levels, and perhaps explain why Arts are lower (although there are no requirements as to how much exp is spent in Arts vs Abilities).
Some of the "learning booster' virtues may also come in handy: Book Learner and Independent Study are at the top of my list. Adept Student less so, but still could explain how he learnt a minimum of spells in just half a normal apprenticeship-period. Affinities in various subjects are also nice.
Differences in his design would be whether Remi is designed as a finished 48-year old magus or is he is designed as a child and developed season by season. Because some of the virtues mentioned affect the exp of the character, and other don't kick in until you actually study, practice or go on stories.

As for Daria I'm still not all the way through the book, but up until now I haven't found anything important about her apprentices.

2 Likes
15

As for Triamore's library in "Lucien's Folly", bear in mind that the 1350 points of Hermetic books and 900 points of mundane is calculated differently in 4th ed than in 5th.

A 4th ed Art summa costs 2x(Quality+Level) while a 5th ed costs 1x (Quality+Level)
A 4th ed Tractatus costs 3xQuality) while a 5th ed costs 1x Quality

A 5th ed covevant of "high power" which I assume covers a Summer covenant had 1250-2500 Build Points so it is hardly consistent if Triamore has spent 2250 points on library alone (not even counting spells), as it leaves too little for buildings, labs etc.
4th ed covenant build system was different, here you rated the various elements (buildings, library, vis etc) with positive and negative characteristics, and had to achieve certain values to fulfill the norm for the type of covenant being built. It was only for spells and books they used (some sort of ) build points.
5th ed covenant system translates everything to build points, giving a lot more freedom as to how the covenant is built.

For comparison Jardin from Through the Aegis is a Summer covenant with 722 Build Points of books and 322 of Spells built for a total of 1466. Didyma from the same book is an Autumn covenant with 1125 build points of books and 271 of spells with a total of 2575.

16

I had not planned on using the same build point numbers from 4e. Rather, I was noting that the description of Triamore's library explicitly mentions "2,700 books." While that's not necessarily a bad number for one of the best libraries in the Order, it's very hard to model in 5e and is 20x the size of the largest library in TtA.

However, Tim Ferguson has noted that a covenant's library build points do not necessarily represent the entire library, only that part of it to which the PCs have access. This might be a way out; perhaps the PCs are given access to only a small part of the large library. Still a lot of books, but comparable to a strong summer covenant.

Remi had no magical training before he was taken by House Jerbiton; I'm afraid I don't understand why the Hedge Wizard flaw might apply? I did almost give him Independent Study, but I ultimately decided it wouldn't be useful in raising his Arts, which is where his problem lies.

17

You are right: Hedge Wizard is not the right flaw. I misremembered it as merely a rep for "not being a properly Hermetic magus".
Maybe some other reputation for being a dabbler, making "proper" magi look down their noses at him?

As for Triamore's library it says "2700 texts" not 2700 books. IMHO this covers scrolls of those 3900 levels of lab texts. Also, supposing a Summa is actually several volumes of books?
Anyway the number 2700 seems drawn from thin air and also excessive compared to what 5th ed says about the number of books in a library.
There is also an inconcistency if over half the texts are mundane why is there in points 50% more books on magic than on mundane subjects?

Independent Study does not help in when designing Rwmi, but it would help in developing him during play. Even with Arts since one can spend Story Exp on them

18

We are running a 5th Ed. Ars Campaign set in Triamore too.
...and we have a lot of books listed. I will check what we can find and send it over to you. (That Libray is horribly big)
There was never a need to stat Daria and Remi. Personally I consider that way safer then having them written down.One can handwave some things better then.

Best Regards.
Comedian

19

Thanks for sharing these stats for Remi and Daria, while I do not expect them to actually get into a fight with them, I do expect my party to go and meet Triamore early on in the game (I decided to use the village of Heer-Agimont on google maps for its location), since two of their starting grogs will be "gifts" from Daria (who needless to say, wants to see the new Rhine Gorge crew become supporters of the Lotharingian movement). I plan on having her seek to play a big hand, and trying to strong arm the group into become a Chapter-house of Triamore.
I do regret not having access to the Triamore book.

2 Likes