Tribunal Maps on Google Maps

Games Discussion Ars Magica
21

I was wondering when this topic would finally get here. I've been holding off on posting my work for over a year now (mainly because I'm unsure what David Chart's position on this sort of thing would be, and I didn't want to step on toes. But now that those floodgates have been opened...)

I'm alpha storyguide for my troupe, and we started at the very beginning (has it really been two years now) with a wiki. More recently, as things got off the ground (we've just finished our first decade in-game), there's been more out-of-area travel, and I had to start researching trade routes. This lead to a non-trivial period of google mapping.

I originally hoped to just use the web interface, but I've found that the way google maps handles various links on the map, by default, is clunky. (It has a set number it seems to want to display at once, so I can't, for example, have all my tribunals, all the covenants, all the cities, etc, showing at once.) I do still have a fairly up-to-date version of that map online at: maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie ... 73ff59&z=4

When I realized the shortcomings of the default google maps interface, I started working more exclusively in google earth, which can handle a directory structure for organizing and turning on/off specific overlays.

My ultimate goal would be to include county/duchy maps and road maps at different snapshots of history apropos to the AM time frame. That strikes me as above-and-beyond my single-man sticktuitiveness. I contemplated trying to set up some sort of public-access map for the AM community, but since I use this map for my game, I didn't want to open up the possibility of user-added content I didn't want in my game. So, right now, it's still just the work I've put in.

My google earth kmz is available at: http://castleperilous.net/~ndilday/images/AM%20Tribunals.kmz

I tried to include all canon covenants, though, after this many editions, "canon" seems like an argument-worthy concept in itself. I have also tried to start adding towns (mainly in the area of Central Europe pertient to my game, at this stage) and trade routes based on known trade routes between towns (via ciolek.com/OWTRAD/DATA/oddda-europe.html , with a best-guess of actual route path based on currently existing road structure). I'll certainly love to hear any suggestions people have, though I'd prefer suggestions be sourced (with AM canon for Hermetic stuff, and something easily internet-readable for historical stuff).

22

My complements to you both on the effort you put into these :slight_smile:

As for areas of conflict, I think one of those is the isle of mann which was meant to be left unclaimed by tribunal until a covenant survived there long enough, (Loch Legean sourcebook i think)

23

In the case of Hungary and Poland even the political map is wrong. So you shoundn't draw maps on a real map based on this flawed game map.
The 4th edition says Transylvanian Tribunal contains Hungary and Bulgaria. Thus the TT should contain present day Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia. A very narrow part of Austria on the Austria-Hungary border. This is the north. The eastern side doesn't matter because the regio Moldva (not present day Moldova!) was almost uninhabited. However you may add the whole Romania. The Transylvaninan-Thebes tribunal border can be the Greek language border so the present day southern Bulgaria border. Albania and Serbia should be part of the Transylvanian Tribunal. However the Tr-Th border may be even the older Byzantine borders in the north. In this case Serbia, Albania, Bulgaria, Dalmatia should be part of Thebes and even the western parts of Asia Minor. Matter of taste.
Also note on the 3rd edition map Coeris was in Bosnia and only later was moved to Transylvania.

24

Cos of the other game produced by the creater of 3rd edition, whose name shall not be mentioned here. :imp:

25

If you could drop pins on the map where you think changes should be made... that would be handy.
-Brian

26

Here you are the differences between the old and new area of Hungary.
opmi.hu/Oroknaptar/Magyarcim ... 59x870.gif

Here's a map from 1200. You may find the links to the later maps it is important because of the division of the Roman Empire in 1204.
euratlas.com/history_europe/ ... _1200.html

For the southern border it is clear you should follow the present day borders of Greece plus Thracia (Constantinople and surroundings, the European parts of Turkey).
Strange decision from the authors but they surely had their reasons.

27

I call shennanigans!

Croatia is in personal union with the Hungarian crown in 1220, but is not in Hungary. Much as Australia is in personal unions with the English crown, but is not in England.

Well, it's full of Cumans. And Romanians if you accept their folklore as true, as opposed to Hungarian folklore. And Szelkes, of course. Quite a few Szelkers.

True. Indeed you -must- if you want Transylvania to actually have Transylvania in it.

This is also true.

Yes: it's in Transylvania in 5th edition.

28

I don't understand your problem. I doesn't matter the law case between Hungary and Croatia in the issue both countries are part of the Transylvanian Tribunal.

The map places many countries too east starting with Bavaria and Franconia. This is not a problem because the medieval maps were also wrong, I just said he shouldn't take wrongly placed map as a base drawing another one with correct places.

This isn't folklore but histocal concepts.
Not so much Cumans but who knows exactly? There were enough space to settle here Cuman refugees in 1226. Some years earlier the Teuton Knights built castles in Moldva but were expelled in 1225.
The first prince of Moldva was Bogdan who wandered here with his people after 1350 when he got Moldva from Louis the Great, the Hungarian king.
Around 1220 the Vlachs were living in Bulgaria just check euratlas 'Empire of the Bulgarians and Vlachs', Wallachia and were wandering north to southern Transylvania and surely toward Moldva.

Szeklers were only in Transylvania. The Szekler villages in Moldva were founded in the 16-17th century I don't remember exactly.

29

Do anybody have a map showing south-east France and north-west Italy, as the map in the main book and the one in The lion and the lily do not show clearly to which tribunal do places in this area. For instance the towns of Lyon, Nice, Marseilles...

30

You're talking about the provencal tribunal from 1st edition onwards and the roman tribunal from 3rd edition. The maps for the tribunals themselves are in the Rome sourcebook from white wolf and for example the Mistridge sourcebook for the provencal tribunal. These are not quite canon anymore, but we don't have anything more recent.

From memory there are no covenants near there as the provencal tribunal is settled in the pyrenese mountains and by the town of Tolouse, Bellaquin was the furthest east listed as 4 days east of Tolouse, but could easily be destroyed in any current saga due to the ongoing crusade in the region against the cathars. Harco would be the closest from the Roman tribunal in Piedmont by Turin.

31

The rhine tribunal's borders are spelled out quite clearly in GotF. However, there seems to be quite a lot of confusion regarding the provincial tribunal.

Perhaps we can derive the area a novo from the historical record, as there don't seem to be any useful, canon, resources for us.

My starting contribution is:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitania

That seems to correspond with the major map to a degree and is a cohesive community with its own language. Moreover, only as the 13th century is starting are the French kings conquering the region. (What a wonderful setting for a game...)

Comments, ideas?

32

Provencal was the vanilla tribunal for 2nd edition. Sadly, Provence is not actually in it, which makes language grouping as a tool for finding the border a bit problematic.

33

Yeah, going from sourcebooks provides contradictions. I'm wondering what natural tribunal borders would have evolved to distinguish the location from Normandy and Iberian tribunals

34

Well, as I recall vaugely from Normandy, it's the covenants, not the landscape, which determine the border. You find a cool site, you put a covenant on it, and the border is just south of your piece of coolness. If there happens to be a river there, then that's cool,

The old fashioned divide of Iberia and France was "Which way does the water flow down the mountain" and I kind of remember that for the Iberian Tribunal...

35

Remember that Provencal and Iberia were once the same Tribunal, the Val-Negra Tribunal (referencing WGRE and ToH-Iberia). It may have included some of Normandy too.

36

Interesting, I was reading HoH:S last night and it suggested that the Flambeau's problems with Tytalus made them split off the provincial tribunal. p.11 on "The Normandy Crisis" "Special Tribunals were held to divide the disputed territory." However, the section following that on the domus magna means that it was moved there from /iberia/

Which means that this section proves nothing. It would be an interesting story hook of Normandy and the provicincial tribunals actually interpenetrated, with a covenant or two on each side claiming for the other tribunal.

::shrug::

37

House Flambeau's fight with House Tytalus caused the Flambeau from Normandy to move to the Provencal Tribunal; but the Provencal Tribunal already existed at this time. This split didn't create a tribunal.

Mark

38

I thought Provencal Tribunal was the Pyreness in the south, the Rhone river in the east and either the Loire or Charente rivers to the north. I can look up the western border of the Alpine Tribune when I get home. It should just be a matter of bracketing it with the other known Tribunals.

39

Tribunals don't have actual geographic boundaries or borders. Rather, the Tribunals is the association of the magi from the covenants that comprise that tribunal. So in other words, where there is no covenant there is no need to define border or boundary.

40

Can anyone recall where the idea that the Rhine border with Transylvania was at Buda and Pest comes from? I thought it was accurate, but I just looked in the Rhine book and the border is clearly further northwest, because Hungary is in Transylvania, and on the current electronic map, the capital of Hungary (Esztergorm) is in the Rhine.

The current map seems to show the junction of the three tribunals at Maribor. Actually its just east of Vienna, in GoTF, following the river, so it seems between Vienna and Bratislava somewhere.