Unbalanced to let Bjornaer magi have familiars?

My opinion is that it is unbalanced to not allow Bjornaer to take familiars. Familiars are just too critical for the long term development of the magi. To be denied the assistance of the familiar is a huge drawback, neither becoming your heart beast at will nor being part of a good mystery cult comes remotely close to counter balancing it.

Is there anything explicitly stating this? I thought the list was familiars, failed apprentices and people with the Gift and a score of at least 1 in Magic Theory. In theory you could have a Magical Animal Friend with the Gifted magical quality, but that doesn't feel like it would be the default.

No, Magical Animal Companion (and related) hasn't ever shown up on the list to my knowledge. Your list is mostly complete. You can also do lab work as a Becoming-Faerie, despite no longer having the Gift. Also, a Magic being that has the Gifted Quality can, as that's basically the same as having the Gift; mostly it was to put a value on the valuable, 0-cost Virtue that the Gift is.

My impression at least is that any being of the magic realm can act as a lab assistant, though it is not specified. While there are several things which are specified as being able to serve as laboratory assistants, nothing is specified to not be able to serve, leaving a huge area of YSMV.

YSMV, but it's certainly not RAW. :slight_smile:

ArM5 Core, p. 103 defines a list of who can assist in the lab. As far as I can tell from the phrasing (being not a native speaker of English), this is is very much a list of permissions, meaning that anyone not explicitly permitted to assist in the lab, cannot.

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In that case why restrict yourself to beings of the magic realm? There is nothing explicitly saying that beings from the Infernal, Divine, or Faerie realms can't assist either, just as there is nothing explicitly saying you can't have a random mudcaked peasant assisting you in the lab.

My reading of the rules is different. If there is a list of beings that can assist in the lab (which there is) then, unless otherwise noted, any being not on that list can't.

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This is a topic which has been discussed as nauseum, the rules are fairly explicit that the list is not inherently exhaustive- in part because it is not presented as a list but rather each person who can help is listed separately. p. 103 indicates anyone who is Gifted and has magic theory of 1 can help= failed apprentices are described elsewhere and under the virtue it is noted they can help in the lab. Additionally there are forge companions who can aid Verditius mages which was left off of your list. It is fairly well implied that there at least are demons who can help in the lab, though accepting that help could get you marched and that might be the least of your problems... certainly Jinn aid the the magis of Seuleman, and it is implied this assistance could apply to Hermetics as well...

I agree that the "assistance in the laboratory" list isn't exhaustive, but in general I'd expect it to be mentioned that a new category can help in the lab as the same time the new category is introduced (or in the "assistance in the laboratory" section if later). If a category is introduced and its not stated that they can help in the lab, I'd assume they can't until something explicitly contradicts it.

I don't necessarily agree with all your counter examples:

  • Whilst Forge Companions can add to a Verditius' lab total, they do it in a different way to what's usually meant by "a lab assistant", and it's significantly less effective - you're helping the Verditius with the crafting bit, not the magic bit, and you'll be doing well to add +3 to the overall lab total.
  • Demons can almost certainly help if they're your familiar, but is there anything allowing them to help more generally?
  • Jinn are necessary for Sahir to do lab work, but I don't think they usually provide any bonus to it? You can get an indirect bonus from a khadim, by enchanting its bond to give you bonuses to summoning it which then feed into your lab total, but that feels closer to a familiar than a random jinn.

The base rule is as listed on p103, that you must be Gifted and have Magic Theory of 1 or greater to be a lab assistant. Then there are various exceptions and additions to this base rule listed elsewhere.
Verditius forge-companions are not standard lab assistants in that they do not help with anything magical, just with mundane lab tasks.

If you wish to go beyond those explicitly noted as being able to assist in the lab, and allow any being from the Magic Realm to assist then you can of course do so, but I have found nothing in the rules to indicate this is intended.
If there is some text suggesting that this is the intention, I would appreciate if you could point it out.

no, it says that anyone who is Giften and has magic theory of 1 can be a lab assistant. it does not say they have to have those, again there have been multiple threads on this specific topic, and the general consensus is that this is an ask your SG topic because YSMV.
in cradle and the crescent Jinn are indicated as lab assistants, where no such note is made in ROP:M, so there is a lot of room for SGs to read it their own way.

A demon could have a false Gift and some Magic Theory. The power to boost a magus' power is rather common, and some variation of that power can surely apply to the lab total. Then there are virtue granting powers. And since demons are deceivers, any of these powers can be made indistinguishable from regular lab assistance, if that suits the demon's scheme.

No, I do not think any demon can serve as a lab assistance, but there are certainly demons who can without any familiar cords.

Sigh

This is the general rule.

First explicit exception.

As mentioned by @Salutor above, seperate system. Also, explicit exception.

Source? Implied is subjective. Which is why 'implied' is a really bad way to read/write rules.
Some of them probably can - but as a general rule? Hardly. See @loke's post above.

And since you mention it, I'm pretty sure I could witch up a Faerie who could help in the lab, but I'd again have to make some form of explicit exception or invoke an existing rule why.

Different tradition. Essentially nothing in the Lab chapter applies to them. They can have non-Gifted primary researchers. I honestly don't see how or why this contributes to the matter at hand?

Not how I read it, or how anyone I've discussed to subject with in person have read it. To my knowledge.

Could you fish out some of these threads? And/or this general consensus?
Telling people that there's general consensus as part of a discussion is a common fallacy, please don't do so without references.

And yes, if your SG/Troupe agrees on something else, go with that. Always. But don't expect it to be generally accepted.

For Hermetic magi? Could you provide me with a page ref?
Because Sahir are a fundamentally different tradition. Indeed they can do nothing magical without Jinn (in general).
To me, it appears that you're telling me that because fully ripe apples are sweet, all fruit are sweet. Including non-ripe lemons.

EDIT: Apologies if this post appears to be personal or any sort of attack. It was not intended to be so, but some of the arguments presented very much rub me the wrong way, and I felt strongly compelled to reply. Again, apologies if it appears personal, it it not intended to be.

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So in other words your in person confirmation bias of your social circle echo chamber has come to this conclusion and nobody else has anything relevant to say. Why bother participating in a discussion forum?
My argument is that there is a lot of room for YSMV because it is not that explicit.
Your argument seems to be that it is that explicit because you and your friends have determined that it is so, and excpetions need to be explicitly made rather than being discussed.

So to the core of the point: p.103 "Anyone who has the Gift and a score of at least one in magic theory may help you to perform any activity that uses your magic theory."
emphasis mine
it is explicitly spelled out that failed apprentices can help in the lab
it is explicitly spelled out that mundanes may set up a lab with magic theory 3 and may copy books on magical topics with magic theory 1
unGifted artisans may aid Verditius enchanters, as detailed explicitly
it is also spelled out that familiars may help in the lab, it is not explicitly stated that this is a function of the three cords
so whether or not it has to be an explicit exception to an implied rule, it is a possibility that a magical animal friend could serve as a lab assistant.
Since we are already talking about changing an explicit rule about bjorners having familiars, I think a different viewing of an implied rule is a much lower threshold.

But they (Verditius forge-companions) may not help as normal lab assistants, only with some mundane things.

Anything is possible, but I can't see the implied rule you hint at in those example. If anything, the implied rule appears to be "Anyone not explicitly marked as being able to assist in the lab, can't do so."
If there is any other implied rule in there, it is not apparent.
Now, your (or any) troupe or SG can of course add more groups to the list of those explicitly able to assist in the lab, but that would be a house rule.

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Technically, I was trying to explain why I was rather surprised at the assertion that it had been widely discussed and agreed. I was specifically pointing out that my references might be a smaller group of people, and asking for references to a wider context in which this had been discussed. My apologies for not getting this across clearly.

This may have been because we playtested for a long while, and so (felt that we) had to stick as close as possible to as strick as possible reading of the rules.

Indeed.
And I do accept that there are contexts in which anything that is not forbidden is permitted, but then such a phrasing renders the whole sentence irrelevant. If the quoted sentence of p. 103 does not prohibited some group(s) from assisting in the lab, why is it there? Why even bother with it? If there are no requirements to be met then there are no restrictions. Then why waste ink on that line?

Indeed. And explicit exceptions tend to argue against, not for implicit exceptions.

I fail to see how this is relevant?

In a comparatively limited way, under a different set of rules, as has been mentioned repeatedly.
As per HoH: MC, p. 113 they add 1/5th of their craft score, not their Int+Magic Theory. Only to magi crafting devices. And from at least one reading of the text, only Verditius Magi may benefit from these Forge Companions, making their inclusion a minor benefit of the Verditius Magic Virtue.
But that part is speculative.

Indeed. And again, explicit exceptions tend to argue against, not for implicit exceptions.
Again, I fail to see how this is relevant for the discussion at hand, or how it would support the argument for widening the group of entities that can assist in the lab?

Pardon? This comes rather out of the left field for me. Has this been mentioned in this thread before?
Other contexts? What have I missed?

I'm not sure what to do with this statement.

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As you can see, I acknowledged my mistake a while back in this discussion that no it is not an explicitly true statement that magic animals can assist, merely a possibility.
If your entire point has been to seek my acknowledgement of this

then this conversation could have been halted about a dozen posts ago.

Yes, exactly- this is the implied rule, not an explicit rule, aka not an actual rule, more of a guideline.
If we are discussing a change to an explicit rule (Bjorner cannot have familiars) the re-examining implied rules is definitely within the scope of a lesser change.

Your claim earlier in the thread was that it was implied that any being of the Magic realm could assist in the lab.
The exact quote of yours being: "My impression at least is that any being of the magic realm can act as a lab assistant, though it is not specified."
So far you have failed to provide anything at all to back up that claim. Probably because there is no such implication in the rules.

Now you appear to backtrack and agree with me that the implied rule is that only those explicitly listed as being able to assist in the lab can do so. Until now you have said nothing about changing this implied rule - you stated that the already existing rules implied otherwise. That is a very different thing from wanting to change this implied rule.

My claim was that I had an impression. How exactly would you "back that up" or why in the blue blazes would any rational person ask someone else to do so. It is not a claim of fact, but of perspective. The assertion that I have an impression is evidence that I in fact have that impression. It is not a claim that "this is RAW" it is a claim that "this is my impression".
Please stop wasting everyone's time and space by demanding support for such ridiculous things.

You could do that by pointing at whatever gave you that impression, of course.
Impressions rarely appears out of thin air, but are based upon something.
Now perhaps you are different in that regard and your impressions are created out of nothing. For your sake I hope not.

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My impressions are generally created from a mass amalgamation of information rather than from a singular quote. Unless you want a sarcastic response like asking you to read the entirety of the books again ad top it off with several volumes of folklore, as well as some Sumerian, Egyptian and Norse Mythology, I suggest you simply accept that my impression was my impression.