Unfortunately, Atlas decided that the file as presented was too exhaustive for them to be comfortable with it so I'm no longer distributing it. Atlas suggested I'll take off all the core-book's guidelines, leaving only the extra guidelines, and they'll post that on their website; but creating this would be too much work for me at the moment. If someone wants to go to the effort of removing all non-core guidelines from the file, I'm sure Atlas would agree if I'll send him one more copy.
Yair
P.S, the extended Form and Material table is already available on Atlas' ArM5 page.
Get a friendly suggestion, Yair, spare the effort anyway. Such a guideline is indeed useful ONLY insofar as it is indeed unified, i.e. it has all the guidelines in one place, core and supplement alike. Having the extra stuff only is rather useless.
I find this decision rather silly, sorry Atlas folks. I might understand not wanting such a file to exist in the first place (OTOH, I can hardly imagine any substantial number of fans shunning to buy products b/c of this. As a rule, if you are interested in having the guidelines, you want the full rules on the crunchy bit, too, and thinking you can run a game with the guidelines alone from the rulebook is asinine: there's so many extra rules you need to llok up regularly: virtues, flaws, combat, lab advancement, descriptions of spells...), but I really fail to see any logic about wanting to shear core stuff alone.
I claim my right to keep using the copy of Yair's original good work that I've stored, as fair use, since in my experience it is no discernible harm to Atlas' copyright and a substantial help to play in everyday gaming. My GM and gaming pals are shameless leeches that long-term borrow my completist set of ArM 5th ed. books (good that I'm so helpless a completist that I've an extra backup set), but Yair's file has not changed their behavior, and mine, any way in this regard.
I yearn for the day Atlas will embrace what IMO is a modern approach to the current realities of the RPG market and will release PDF copies of the corebook and all the supplements, too, on a regular basis, like many other RPG publishers currently do, so this silliness will become a thing of the past.
John has in the past said that he has examined this possibility. looked at the numbers, and decided that it was an unwise decision. John and Michelle still have to put food on their table and make mortgage payments like the rest of us. Other RPG companies and other RPGs have different financial situations. A frighteningly large proportion of RPG companies have gone out of business and a tremendously large number of RPGs are no longer in publication. I haven't seen the breakdown of cost and profit but I'd encourage you at least consider the possibility that "this silliness" in not silliness at all but rather good business that is ensuring the continued production of Ars Magica material for us in the future. (Of course I've never seen the numbers and I could be completely wrong. I'm just trusting that the Nephews have looked into it more closely than I have.)
Wanderer - First off, calling someone "silly" is not a great reflection on you, nor your understanding of the larger situation, at least not until you've shown that you can make an RPG into a successful venture. It implies that you do not see what others see, others who have demonstrated success. It's easy to criticize, so why go the easy route? As a "friendly suggestion".
(While the game you refer to has both a massive customer base and a breadth of worlds that can support the "Open Use" material, AM, unfortunately, cannot lay claim (yet) to either. Maybe one day...)
The highlighted area is, imo, a contradiction in terms. The fact that it is such a help implies that it has intrinsic value - the fact that it has that value, and that you have paid Atlas nothing for it, implies that you have, in fact, done harm to Atlas, by stealing, rather than buying, a second copy of the rules (something that, otherwise, you would be far more tempted to do.) Since it improves your gaming experience (significantly, if your description is accurate - I've tried to run a game with only 1 copy of the rules!), that improvement is exactly equal to the harm done.
Whether or not you think you would buy another copy is not the question. The fact that you, by your own admission, now don't need to is the crux of the matter. If only ~you~ were using the material, ~that~ is "fair use". But when that material allows you to keep your book by your side while others use that material, if it allows the game to progress smoothly instead of everyone agreeing another copy of the rules is needed, that's the dealbreaker.
Back on topic...
Because the Guidelines allow one to recreate perhaps over 90% of the spells listed, and the Rules promote variability, even within the suggested spells, those Guidelines alone represent a huge portion of the rules as presented.
What a compilation does ~not~ do is include the specifics of the rules that go along with each set of additional guidelines - faerie magic for the faerie guidelines, and so on. If that is the only limiter, it's hardly poor business sense to not want that disseminated.
Your argument is otherwise very sound, but I wanted to re-establish things on this:
IIRC, he said that his pals heavily borrowed his books before, and that their behavior hasn't changed one bit.
Hum.. There:
So, no, he does not keep his book by his side, and he has an extra copy. Altough one could surely argue that maybe his shameless pals would have bought their own copy if they hadn't had the file, one can't be sure of it.
Otherwise, I agree about the guidelines being a veeery important part of the rules, that should not be given away lightly.
However, you can't play Ars without the corebook, so, IMO, a complete file on guidelines won't diminish its importance, it'll still be heavily needed. So, maybe this could be included in a future supplement, like RoP: M?
I must admit I pretty much agree with this assessment. Not useless, perhaps, but of far less value.
I like PDFs a lot, although frankly I prefer hardbound for ArM. I prefer PDF for adventures, which ArM is extremely lacking in, but not so much sourcebooks. Unless they are free, which is perhaps the wave of the future - free (or nominally priced) online/digital content when you purchase the dead-wood version. That's essentially what Wizards is planning for D&D 4e. But that's a long way off for ArM, I think.
What I am really yearning for is the day where I'll have a good, durable and cheap digital book, so I could carry all my RPG books with me to a session without needing a trolly.
I can't say I disagree with Atlas' decision - in this or on the matter of the united guidelines. And I wouldn't presume to tell John how to run his buisness. On the contrary - I am very pleased with how Atlas operates, and would like to take the opportunity to thank Atlas for its accesability, kind nature, obvious love of the game, and not the least the success that is ArM5.
Which leads me to wander - perhaps Atlas could simply SELL a pdf with all the guidelines? Some extra collated works perhaps too, for the aforementioned Wizard's Grimoire (I'd pack in The Great Apcrypha Collection). It would require relatively little expense, and if it is fairly cheap it would provide a solution for the recurring issue of requests for such a compilation.
Atlas - are you listening?
The only problem I see with this proposal is that the guidelines presumably present a large part of the rules, so Atlas wouldn't want someone to have the ability to purchase it at low cost instead of purchasing the core book (both at a higher cost and increasing its circulation, which has indirect advantages). But I'll leave such considerations to the professionals.
Errg, actually my file did include that. It's the complete spell guidelines, complete with everything needed to implement them (discussion of the elemental forms, faerie spell parameters, and so on).
Once a pdf exists, it becomes posted to myriad download sites before you can say "Fair Use". I am constantly stunned at what I find available "for free" when I do a search for info on the product.
Even if it's only in FlashPlayer or other form that makes it much harder to download a copy, it's still available for on-line reference, and that means one can read it, internalize it, make the notes they need at leisure, and ignore buying the product.
While that's not morally right, its done waaaay too often.
Ars has strange economics. It's popular in Europe but is almost dead in the US. Now part of the reason for this is that hardcover game books cost a significant % more then the old softcovers of a decade or so ago. Ad that the US distribution system won't carry softcover books, and increased cost of living in the US (without increased wages) and American gaming is in quite a sorry state. I know a number of store owners that once carried RPG's but don't anymore.
Personally, I think this entire thing is the stupidist thing I've ever heard, but you try explaining to a publisher that the difference between a $24 book and a $29 book is going to make a difference in sales (that whole demand curve thing). Or try explaining the a FLGS owner that yes he's carrying D&D but as long as the local Barnes & Nobles is selling for a 10% discount, he's going to need to as well.
I like pdfs because I don't have to lift my ass from behind my computer when checking something
I like them because of the search function (Yes, I really am a lazy bastard)
Most of all, I like them because they mean I can be sure my hardbound copy will stay in perfect shame.
Yet, I dislike them because I LOVE hardbound, real books, don't like to read on a computer, and I also dislike them because, IMO, pdf = instant p2p release = no sales = no ars.
So, while I like having pdf copies of the books I own, I'd never buy a book in PDF if I could have it in hardbound, even with a lower price.
I said it before, it may have been lost in the ether, but a pdf that was available for print on http://www.lulu.com would be fantastic. Then it could remain electronic for those who want it to be electronic, and it would be in print for those who want it in print.
I've just gotten examples of this from Wolfgang Baur's Empire of the Ghouls project (at http://www.wolfgangbaur.com) and both the soft and hardbound versions were fantastic. It's an excellent option for when you have a supplement where printing costs or demands might not justify a large run, but allows the individual to create what they're wanting.
And yes, sometimes those electronic versions end up on sharesites or as part of a torrent, but you can make watermarked pdfs which can cut down on that sort, or at least point back at the person who released the pdf into the wild... but as long as there have been attempts at copyright protection there have been people who will crack them. If it's priced right and made easily available, people who care about the game will be certain to pick it up.
My comment about the "silliness" was not about the decision NOT to allow such guidelines in the first place, but about to disallow corebook guidelines, while allowing supplement guidelines. THAT I do find silly, since it is no appreciable help to table top gaming (the value of such guidelines is to diminish the need to pick and go through a dozen of books every little while, and that needs a unified set; if I only have say a half of them, the help value of the piece becomes marginal; not zero, but marginal IMO), and it is still an hypothetical breach of copyright. However, I assume that the existence of unified spell guidelines are not a significant harm for selling Ars stuff from experience. The guidelines only help to minimize leafing through a dozen books, and so cut down loss of gaming time, but they aren't going to motivate one to buy one less book, since you are still going to need it for many other things. It simply lets you use better the books you have.
As I said, my gaming group has habits that may be definitely criticizable, copyright-wise, but I can tell from experience that the existence of guidelines has not changed them one bit. They borrowed my books before, they borrow them now. If I want to play Ars the way I like (5th ed. with all the supplements, instead of a frustrating core-only 4th ed.), I have to let them, since it is plain they don't have the same kind of fan dedication to the game that I have (to be honest, I've also got the biggest wage of them all). I have bought an extra copy of pretty much everything, so sincerely I do think I've done my reasonable best to ensure the next lunch of the Nephews on my part. I'm not going to be the copyright cop of my gaming pals (especially since while I can see the common sense for reasonable copyright respect in a small cottage industry like RPG, I'm all for outright piracy when it comes to movies, music, and software, where the unbridled greed of corporate giants reigns supreme, and they corrupt legislators to make copyright laws and practices more and more abusive, with DMCA, DVD regions, trusted computing, copyright extension to multiple lifespans, DRM, legal harassing of P2P, and whatnot), nor I'm going to give up occasion to play for their sake.
Now, whether it would be more right or business-wise for Atlas folks to sell such guidelines instead of giving them out for free, that's another matter. I can state I would gladly pay a reasonable price to have official PDF unified spell guidelines that get updated with the release of new books. I'm not going to buy them in a deadtree book, since that would mean one more book in my groaning backpack to carry around when I go to game.
There is no harm, since in my experience having the guidelines is not something that motivates you not to buy extra copies of the books. The help is not something that an extra copy of the book would alleviate, it would only reproduce the problem of endless leafing through books. Since this does not affect the selling potential of existing books, there is no real harm. At least morally, if not legally, since I do not care about copyright laws one bit, they are unfair from top to bottom. I cannot stop in my tracks to worry about whether I do hypothetical harm to diminish the future selling potential of an official spell guideline set that may never exist. If and when they do create one, that's another matter. Until they do not, I deem I'm within morally fair use to use an unofficial one.
But this is not the case. Unified spell guidelines cut down the time to leap through books. But one book set, two, or three, it doesn't change anything. They do borrow and share one of my book sets, and I keep the other by my side. I acknowledge it's not the optimal setup, from Atlas' POV, but what can I do ? They are not going to buy them anyway. OTOH, the fact I do get to play regularly makes me more motivated to buy a couple copies of pretty much any new 5th ed book (even if so far, I've shunned Normandy Tribunal: I'm not very persuaded it is going to significantly help my gamepley).
Heck, I'm the kind of completist folk that buys extra copies of hardbound books for backup, and/or buys both the deadtree and the PDF copy of the same book, just because I do find them equally useful for different situations and purposes (ever tried to sneak a good look at your RPG collection at work ? with PDFs is a breeze).
My comment about the "silliness" was not about the decision NOT to allow such guidelines in the first place, but about to disallow corebook guidelines, while allowing supplement guidelines. THAT I do find silly, since it is no appreciable help to table top gaming (the value of such guidelines is to diminish the need to pick and go through a dozen of books every little while, and that needs a unified set; if I only have say a half of them, the help value of the piece becomes marginal; not zero, but marginal IMO), and it is still an hypothetical lessening of copyright integrity. However, I assume that the existence of unified spell guidelines are not a significant harm for selling Ars stuff from experience. The guidelines only help to minimize leafing through a dozen books, and so cut down loss of gaming time, but they aren't going to motivate one to buy one book less, since you are still going to need it for many other things. It simply lets you use better the books you have.
As I said, my gaming group has habits that may be definitely criticizable, copyright-wise, but I can tell from experience that the existence of guidelines has not changed them one bit. They borrowed my books before, they borrow them now. If I want to play Ars the way I like (5th ed. with all the supplements, instead of a frustrating core-only 4th ed., at best, or some other game entirely), I have to let them, since it is plain they don't have the same kind of financial fan dedication to the game that I have (to be honest, I've also likely got the biggest budget of them all) . I have bought an extra copy of pretty much everything, so sincerely I do think I've done my reasonable best to ensure the next lunch of the Nephews on my part. I'm not going to be the copyright cop of my gaming pals (especially since while I can see the reason for copyright respect in a small industry like RPG, I'm all for outright piracy when it comes to movies, music, and software, where the unbridled greed of copyright giants reigns supreme, and they have lobbied copyright laws that get more and more unfair and oppressive, such as extension to the lifespan of grand-grandchildren, DMCA, DRM, regional limitations, trusted computing, etc.), nor I'm going to give up occasion to play for their sake.
Now, whether it would be more right or business-wise for Atlas folks to sell such guidelines instead of giving them out for free, that's another matter. I can state I would gladly pay a resonable price to have official PDF unified spell guidelines that get updated with the release of new books. I'm not going to buy them in a deadtree book, since that would mean one more book in my groaning backpack to carry around when I go to game.
There is no harm, since in my experience having the guidelines is not something that motivates you to avoid buying extra copies of the books. The help is not something that an extra copy of the book would alleviate, it would only reproduce the problem of endless leafing through books. Since this does not affect the selling potential of existing books, there is no real harm. At least under morality and common sense, if not legally, since I do not care about copyright laws one bit, they are unfair and unjust from top to bottom. I cannot stop in my tracks to worry about whether I do hypothetical harm to diminish the future selling potential of an official spell guideline set that may never exist. If and when they do create one, that's another matter. Until they do, I deem I'm within ethical fair use to use an unofficial one.
But this is not the case. Unified spell guidelines cut down the time to leap through books. But one book set, two, or three, it doesn't change anything. They do borrow and share one of my book sets, and I keep the other by my side. I acknowledge it's not the optimal setup, from Atlas' POV, but what can I do ? They are not going to buy them anyway.
OTOH, the fact I do get to play regularly makes me more motivated to buy a couple copies of pretty much any new 5th ed book so far. I've only made an exception with Normandy Tribunal: I'm not very persuaded it is going to significantly help my gameplay, and I do somehow regret buying City and Cuild, which has been rather useless to me. Heck, I'm the kind of diehard RPG completist collector that buys two copies of all the significantly useful books for backup, and/or buys both the deadtree and PDF version of the books, since I find them equally useful for different purposes.
ALL of the published material is available as pdf through the usual p2p-networks. Most of those are available the day after publishing. Which is much quicker than the german version, usually... And there is nothing you can do about that.
Still, ArM exists.
IMO those pdf serve one purpose: test-reading. And thats about it.
Is that supplement worth my money or not?
You can spend an hour reading the pdf. You can't in your local dealers shop, usually. But that's where you'll buy the hardcopy if it is worth the money.
Roleplayers are collectors. They collect hardcopies.
Gaming with the computer running? Unthinkable, and we tried.
If we weren't collectors, none of my troupe would have bought any 5th ed stuff. We're still playing 4th. We're more comfortable with that. But we keep on buying stuff we'll hardly ever use.
In short: distributing pdf wouldn't hurt. They're available anyways. And they're used by the same people buying ArM-Books.
Nope. Use of a scanner and OCR do the job. Some people are blunt enough to wrap hundreds of .jpg into a .pdf-file.
You know, I was wondering if ArM5 was in red and black to prevent photocopying
You couldn't in ancient times. You know, the times when there where still codebooks to protect computergames (type the third word of the second paragraph from page 212 of the rulebook...).
They were printed in black on red, or one shade of grey on another. This made them impossible to copy - and next to impossible to read for that matter...
Given what todays copymachines can do, this is no longer a problem - reading these things excepted of course
No, my point is that the only store that has Atlas gear the -day- after publication is the one that shares warehouse space with Atlas. Even the rest of the US has a slight delay.
That's essentially what Wizards is planning for D&D 4e. But that's a long way off for ArM, I think.
