Unravelling the fabric of (whatever)

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

This handy spell cancels magic of a specific form (e.g. ignem).

If i put it in an item as an effect, could i make that item immune (or nearly so) to magic from that form.

i.e. if i put the below effect into an enchanted statue.

Unravelling the fabric of terram
(base 20, +2 sun)
+3 environmental trigger (sun up / sun down)
+1 for 2 uses per day
Total level = 34

This spell stops all terram magic of level (30 + stress die) from affecting the statue.

Now the questions.

  1. would this work
  2. would it be a constant effect, i.e. if you fling a terram spell (below 30) at it every round, would it stop them all? How about more than one spell per round?
2

IMHO 1 yes 2 yes and yes

3

I agree, especially about the constant effect. It is specified that this is a truly constant effect, so there wouldn't be any lapse in it.

4

no, no, and no

I beleive you cant put spells that effect spells in items unless you know the right mystery, such as consumate talisman

the spell also need a target.

your trigger would need to be when a spell is cast...but then it's to late unless it's not a momentary effect.

also from a game balance point, you have no need for parma if you can be immune from all spells.

5

I agree with Agnar, the Unravel spell is aimed at a specific spell. However, making the effect Concentration and adding an "Intellego" requisite, would probably work. However it would not be parma, as it wouldn't help against any other type of effect (fairie, infernal, fire-breathing dragon) unless the magus was familiar with them and added them in.

Especially as the item can only effect one spell at once - what if two spells are sent in? It would still be unravelling the first spell while the second blitzed it. As long as it takes a certain amount of time to unravel a specific effect (say one round to dispel an incoming spell) then its not too bad.

You can imagine that there are several items out there made for shield grogs which will protect them. Especially if you rule that the item has to Penetrate the spell it is unravelling. Like in the muto rules.

6

The rule you are talking about is specifically muto vim effects. Perdo vim, even rego, intellego and creo are fine. For instance, you can certainly have a "dispelling" wand with a Wind of mundane silence spell in it.

Is this case the spell does have a target, its the statue. Any terram magic cast on the statue (below the threshold level of course) is cancelled.

This is the only objection i could get behind. What need does one have for Parma when one can cast such a spell.

Well firstly, the spell would stop you casting magic on yourself as much as it would stop someone else casting magic on you. Secondly you would need a similar spell for each of the forms. Thirdly, you'd need them reasonably powerful to actually stop anything of consequence which means having a spread of high arts, limiting it to only the powerful. Finally, if you had a ward for each effect up at a level that'd stop the nasty spells you are looking at a tremendous amount of warping. Magi would quickly become horrifically warped.

The parma is so much better at all of this. Thats why it is still relevant.

Also, for powerful non-hermetics, a little magic resistance should be ok. Just not the awesome power of universal parma. Someone like Damhan-allidh for instance should certainly have picked up a little protection against magic, or the first hermetic to BoAF him would have saved the day, making a historically very-nasty bad guy into a speed bump.

7

Hum... Some more thoughts about this.

This cancels the effects of a spell.
One could argue about this, but a point could be made that spells casts on such a statue last only an instant before being dispelled, but happen nonetheless.

However, even if it did work as a parma, it would still require learning a lot of different spells, updating them as your arts would grow, would incurr warping if in effect all the time, and, last but not least, would only stop the lower-level spells. So, you'd stop a Pillum, but not a BoAF.
Such a version of these spells could, however, make a very good complement to parma magica, protecting from the lower level spells while the parma protected against the higher ones.

But wouldn't it need to beat the other spell's penetration in order to affect it?

EDIT: lol, 2 other posts in the time it took me to write this one :laughing:

8

Something of this sort is clearly needed to protect our dear magical carpet from being PeHe'd out of the sky...

Hmm... will the item become warped from the constant magical effect upon it?

9

IMO: no and no...

You haven't got a target for your effect - PeVi needs an magical effect to target, just as PeCo needs a human target...
What you have here is an effect that at sunset and sundown tries to dispell a single effect (which effect? Either set by the maker of the item, or by an user before the effect fires...)

If you want to have something work in the manner you actually intended, then you need a InVi to detect incomming spells, and link that to the PeVi effect (and probably set that at unlimited uses per day...)

Btw - also worth noting that unravelling the fabric of ... only works against hermetic magic...

10

A ReVi can also work to protect the creation from anything supernaturally-related. It is basically like giving it MR.

I woul also allow it, with a linked trigger (be the effect of a spell). Number of defensive spells determined by uses/day.

Cheers,

Xavi

@Wolf: playin' in arabia, are you? :slight_smile: I always found flying carpets to be really cool.

11

Counterexample: Wind of Mundane Silence targets a room, not an effect... and dispels any and all effects it can handle, not just one. And the general Vim guidelines suggest a person or an object is just as valid a target as a spell effect.

Wrong. Unraveling... specifically says it has variants for specific non-hermetic magics. And the PeVi guidelines has a guideline for perdoing any unknown magical effect, at a lower efficiency.

@Xavi: well, not playing much at the moment... the campaign fizzled when half the group disappeared. But metaphysical discussions are always fun.

12

I was just about to agree (reluctantly) with Ulf, but i didn't know this. Back to the books for me.

I think the point is that if some (dirty, unwashed) non-hermetic came and did the equivalent of a terram spell using his own brand of magic, the UtFoT spell i proposed wouldn't stop it, i'd have to either develop another version for his variety of magic or use an effect based off the same guidelines as WoMS.

13

Hum... I'm really not sure this could protect against magic as presented.

Dispell spells cast on the orb after they've been cast (thus making them last only a moment), ok.

But, as Ulf noted, unless the spell is linked to an intellego vim spell, has enough range, and enough uses, it would not stop a spell before it affected the orb, and could only supress one spell per round.

14

remember that spell-like effects have a listed hermetic form equivalent for the purposes of magic resistance. So even nonhermetics would get their powers resisted more likely than not.

Xavi

15

Effectivly WoMS targets all the spells & effects in a room - not the room itself...
I've noted that there are several effects in the realm of Perdo that stops anything from comming from the target (PeIm is a great source for these effects), but none that stops thing from coming to the target... Warding is the realm of Rego...

Are we talking about "Unraveling the fabric of (form)" or something else?
Quote: "This spell will cancel the effects of any one spell of a specified Form whose level is less than or equal to (spell level + 10 + stress die (no botch)). There are 10 variants that cover each Hermetic Form, and a number of much rarer variants for different kinds of non-Hermetic magic."

Since you specified 'Terram', I would imagine that you're targeting the hermetic form of Terram, not some non-hermetic magic? :wink:
The guideline it is based upon also states that you need to have some knowledge of the type of magic you wish to counter (having a form opened would count easily for hermetic magic)...

16

I agree that ReVi is the best technique for this, and if done with Perdo it probably would not affect momentary duration spells. A subject for research for a bonisagus...

But I remember discussions that an ongoing PeTe effect making a hole would affect any dirt you put into the hole to fill it. Right? Analogously, an ongoing PeVi would affect magic entering the area of effect...

gribble: agreed, it wouldn't stop a non-hermetic terram-equivalent effect.

17

I disagree. Rego vim wards were taken out of fifth ed. I don't see how house ruleing them back in would improve the game (but I'm willing to listen to arguments).

Useing this analogy there isn't any justification for the unravling spell not to affect momentary magics.

18

Fair enough. But suppressing the effect of a spell is still in as a guideline. Which strikes me as just as workable as unraveling, if you have it constant effect.

A generic "give magic resistance" ward is right out, of course, no quibbles there.

Agreed. Is that just a pecularity of Wind of Mundane Silence, then?

19

I agree. A Circle duration PeVi is justifiable within the rules as stated but doesn't, and can't, take the place of Parma Magica except in very narrow circumstances.

Given:

Then:

Protection from Unannounced Visitors (PeVi 30)

Base: 20
R:Touch (+1)
D:Circle (+1)
T:Ind (+0)

The player rolls a stress die (no botch). Any magus is prevented from successfully casting any Corpus spells across the circle whose level is less than sum of 40 and the results of the stress die rolled by the caster of the PeVi spell.

NOTE: A strict interpretation of the guideline can lead one to believe that this is independent of Penetration. A more rationalized version, it would seem, would be a Penetration vs. Penetration resolution of the competing spells. Not sure where I sit on this.

Also,

Declining the Enigma's Gift (PeVi 35)

Base:30
R: Touch (+1)
D: Momentary (+0)
T: Ind (+0)

In case one get's into a WW with a Criamon. Cancels a Vim spell cast at the caster of this spell of at least level 50+stress die (no botch). Master for fast casting and magic resistance and no one except the one or two Criamon Archmagi will push you into Twilight.

The Shieldman's Wall Against Hell's Flames (PeVi 32)

Base: 20
R: Touch (+1)
D: Mom (+0)
T: Ind (+0)
Environmental Trigger (touching magical fire): +3 levels
24 uses per day: +4 levels

A shield used by the magus's grog to protect against magical fire attacks up to level 40 plus stress die roll (no botch) at manufacture. Device is defeated if the fire spell never actually touches the shield.

NOTE: May be a little off, I don't have my book. Also, no penetration in this design. The more rational view would require adding Penetration (and perhaps expiry to make it easier to make). Finally, this doesn't take into account any enchantment bonuses from shape or material because I'm not sure what they are without said book. Some might also argue that the environmental trigger needs to be a linked trigger linked to a Touch-range Intelligo Vim effect to let the shiled discern that it is touching magical fire. YMMV.

Now, if someone wants to make a Hermetic Breakthrough in ReVi and/or PeVi to make a SPELL out of Parma...well, that would be epic, and maybe even a game-breaker.

20

Universal wards were taken out (because parma is special).
Base your wards on non-universal countermagics... (i.e. Wards against hermetic terram magics)