Using an enchanted staff (maybe talisman) for combat...

[callen]

The more enchanted an item, the hardier it is. See City & Guild.

For reference, it's page 77f.
And you need quite some magic to get an item to the safe side...

Perhaps. I would expect the magus bringing it into combat to have some skill at doing so, otherwise they'd choose another option. Let's figure at least an Ability with specialty of 5 - not overly high. If it's enchanted, it's at least Superior if not Excellent (only needs to be +1), and if it's going to be a Talisman it will probably be Excellent. So let's figure we're at 8 now. 7 magnitudes of effects would be needed. That's a fair amount for a typical item, but for a Talisman you'd probably get to it pretty quickly since you get other bonuses while doing so.

You can also use MuHe to make it nigh-unbreakable. I think there is a spell for that in HoH:S, Flambeau section.

Muto magic does hit the limit of essential nature though, so can probably only protect with limited duration.

Right and wrong. The duration can't be Momentary and lasting via vis. Just use a Constant duration, which isn't really limited.

[eldarin]

Perhaps. I would expect the magus bringing it into combat to have some skill at doing so, otherwise they'd choose another option.

True, it is probably correct that I will take other options before I try to amateurishly defend myself with weapon skill... At this early stage of character development at least.

Right and wrong. The duration can't be Momentary and lasting via vis. Just use a Constant duration, which isn't really limited.

Ah, ok. You meant instilling a constant MuHe effect not casting a spell. Constant is achieved with "twice a day triggered at sun rise and dawn", right?

[callen]

Ah, ok. You meant instilling a constant MuHe effect not casting a spell. Constant is achieved with "twice a day triggered at sun rise and dawn", right?

Start with Aegis of Unbreakable Wood (HoH:S p.36). Drop it to R: Personal since you're enchanting the item. Now you have MuHe 10 for R: Personal, D: Sun, T: Individual. The staff is now "susceptible to fire, but is otherwise nearly indestructible." Add +1 for 2/day uses and +3 for environmental trigger to make it constant. So MuHe 14. If it's your Talisman, you get +5. Including Aura, Intelligence, and Magic Theory, you're probably up to at least 15, maybe significantly higher. Your Arts don't need to be that good to bump that up to 28 and pull this off in 1 season.

[eldarin]

Ah, ok. You meant instilling a constant MuHe effect not casting a spell. Constant is achieved with "twice a day triggered at sun rise and dawn", right?

Start with Aegis of Unbreakable Wood (HoH:S p.36). Drop it to R: Personal since you're enchanting the item. Now you have MuHe 10 for R: Personal, D: Sun, T: Individual. The staff is now "susceptible to fire, but is otherwise nearly indestructible." Add +1 for 2/day uses and +3 for environmental trigger to make it constant. So MuHe 14. If it's your Talisman, you get +5. Including Aura, Intelligence, and Magic Theory, you're probably up to at least 15, maybe significantly higher. Your Arts don't need to be that good to bump that up to 28 and pull this off in 1 season.

Well, as newly gauntleted magus that does not specialize in neither Herbam nor Muto... But anyway I'll keep that in mind and no longer hesitate to start with a (low score staff) weapon skill and atune a well made staff as talisman when I have the time and vis...

Thanks
Jan

[Berengar]

Once you start considering to use a talisman in combat, you should also look at

Hardness of Adamantine (MuTe 25)
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
This spell instills a metal object with supernatural strength and hardness. Even weak metals like gold or lead can be affected. The object becomes nearly unbreakable by mundane means.
If used on an edged or pointed weapon, the weapon gains +1 to damage. This bonus can be combined with that from Edge of the Razor or other spells.
(Base 4, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +2 affect metal)

and on

The Weightless Menhir (MuTe 20)
R: Touch, D: Sun, T:Ind.
This spell makes a stone as light as a feather. Muirgen created this spell to easily move the portal stones.
(Base 4, +1 Touch, +1 stone, +2 day — the base size is big enough without adding magnitudes for size).

Add one magnitude for a cubic foot of iron instead of a menhir, and make an iron staff or sword as light as a feather, or anyway as light as you like to fight with.

There is lots of time you can spend on your talisman that way. But you cannot carry a weapon around with you all the time - while you need to touch it to bestow your MR to it: otherwise it is very vulnerable to magic.
So you also might need to shrink/expand your staff by magic, if you wish to have it around everywhere. "Don't touch the iron toothpick of Pugnandi Peritus: he is very protective of it!"

Cheers

[eldarin]

Yeah, size was another question I had.

Interesting Terram ideas, but I think I'll stick to Herbam because walnut wood has a nice bonus for Mentem magic, which is the primary focus of Prometheus ex Tytalus.

[eldarin]

What do you think how Aegis of Unbreakable Wood and Hardness of Adamantine compare? Both state nearly unbreakable as effect. However the Herbam version is of lower magnitude, which sounds a bit suspicious - shouldn't it be easier to make iron unbreakable than wood?

[eldarin]

But you cannot carry a weapon around with you all the time - while you need to touch it to bestow your MR to it: otherwise it is very vulnerable to magic.

What does count as touching? Do you have to carry it in the hand to count as touching (or in a different way touching the skin)?

[Berengar]

What do you think how Aegis of Unbreakable Wood and Hardness of Adamantine compare? Both state nearly unbreakable as effect. However the Herbam version is of lower magnitude, which sounds a bit suspicious - shouldn't it be easier to make iron unbreakable than wood?

Aegis of Unbreakable Wood[/i]"]Makes a wooden shield (or object of comparable dimensions) as strong as iron, increasing its Defense bonus by +1.

Hardness of Adamantine[/i]"]The object becomes nearly unbreakable by mundane means.

There's an important difference, right?

But you cannot carry a weapon around with you all the time - while you need to touch it to bestow your MR to it: otherwise it is very vulnerable to magic.

What does count as touching? Do you have to carry it in the hand to count as touching (or in a different way touching the skin)?

Ask your troupe for such technicalities - but holding it in a glove, carrying it on the girdle or even on your hat all counts as 'touching' for me.

Cheers

[eldarin]

Aegis of Unbreakable Wood[/i]"]Makes a wooden shield (or object of comparable dimensions) as strong as iron, increasing its Defense bonus by +1.

Hardness of Adamantine[/i]"]The object becomes nearly unbreakable by mundane means.

There's an important difference, right?

Well, the former has

It remains susceptible to fire, but is otherwise nearly indestructible.

Edit: I suppose there will be a Herbam way (potentially adding a Terram requisite), although this will be hard and take long due to missing skill in both Herbam and Terram...

[Berengar]

Interesting Terram ideas, but I think I'll stick to Herbam because walnut wood has a nice bonus for Mentem magic, which is the primary focus of Prometheus ex Tytalus.

I see, that your character is the one with the Personae.

In that case his talisman best be as inconspicuous as possible, or he might not be able to use it when venturing forth as a Persona. For a staff talisman shrinking would be nearly a must then - and Prometheus as Benessa can't just grow it back from a toothpick to hack about with it, unless he wishes to ruin her rep in an entire town or agricultural community.
An inconspicuous knife with a handle from walnut wood - or such - as a talisman might make the occasional life as a Persona a lot easier.

Cheers

[eldarin]

I thought that it might get along as a wandering staff most of the time and such would be unsuspicious for most personae I could develop in the future.

If that is a bad idea I don't know if the talisman should be a weapon at all.

[callen]

Add one magnitude for a cubic foot of iron instead of a menhir, and make an iron staff or sword as light as a feather, or anyway as light as you like to fight with.

I wouldn't do that with a weapon. It's quite well known (look at weapon designs) that having weight is important to causing damage.

I thought that it might get along as a wandering staff most of the time and such would be unsuspicious for most personae I could develop in the future.

Sure. But being able to shrink it might still be useful at other times, and it would add magnitudes to make it hardier.

[eldarin]

I'd definitely add shrinking. Question was more if something like a staff (quite visible) conflicts with having multiple personae (not all of them carrying a huge weapon typically).

[eldarin]

I wouldn't do that with a weapon. It's quite well known (look at weapon designs) that having weight is important to causing damage.

I think a similar effect would actually allow for any weight. That should include exactly the weight you'd want for a weapon.

What is your take on the similarity or difference between Hardness of Adamantine and Aegis of Unbreakable Wood?

[eldarin]

An inconspicuous knife with a handle from walnut wood - or such - as a talisman might make the occasional life as a Persona a lot easier.

I was thinking about a crown made of walnut or something. On the other hand one can seldom wear it without triggering suspicion either. Maybe a wooden mask made of walnut wood...

Prometheus as Benessa can't just grow it back from a toothpick to hack about with it, unless he wishes to ruin her rep in an entire town or agricultural community.

That is for growing the staff from toothpick, not for wielding a staff as Benessa in general, or is it?

[jason72 (Jason)]

A small piece of porphyry (TSE, page 45) as part of the talisman might be better than a crown shape.

[Berengar]

Add one magnitude for a cubic foot of iron instead of a menhir, and make an iron staff or sword as light as a feather, or anyway as light as you like to fight with.

I wouldn't do that with a weapon. It's quite well known (look at weapon designs) that having weight is important to causing damage.

You miss the context of this recommendation: if you make a staff from iron to give it Hardness of Adamantine, its weight is a multiple of a normal quarterstaff or Bo, so you need a way to significantly reduce it.

Cheers

[callen]

I wouldn't do that with a weapon. It's quite well known (look at weapon designs) that having weight is important to causing damage.

I think a similar effect would actually allow for any weight. That should include exactly the weight you'd want for a weapon.

Yes, doing that would be good.

What is your take on the similarity or difference between Hardness of Adamantine and Aegis of Unbreakable Wood?

On the whole burning thing, I figure it's still wood and wood burns. It's just stronger. Otherwise these and Doublet of Impenetrable Silk in the core book are essentially all doing the same thing. In that last case, you still want your doublet to be flexible, different than flammable, but the same sort of idea.

Add one magnitude for a cubic foot of iron instead of a menhir, and make an iron staff or sword as light as a feather, or anyway as light as you like to fight with.

I wouldn't do that with a weapon. It's quite well known (look at weapon designs) that having weight is important to causing damage.

You miss the context of this recommendation: if you make a staff from iron to give it Hardness of Adamantine, its weight is a multiple of a normal quarterstaff or Bo, so you need a way to significantly reduce it.

No, I didn't miss the context. The statement itself mostly missed that context and is now being changed. Retroactively changing a statement doesn't make comments about how it used to be in error. Only a quarter of the original comment might have even possibly fit that context and the new changes. Making an iron staff as light as a feather doesn't. Making a sword as light as a feather doesn't. Making a sword "as light as you like" doesn't. Making the iron staff "as light as you like" might. The new statement about needing to reduce the weight of something that is too heavy is a good one.

[Berengar]

Add one magnitude for a cubic foot of iron instead of a menhir, and make an iron staff or sword as light as a feather, or anyway as light as you like to fight with.

I wouldn't do that with a weapon. It's quite well known (look at weapon designs) that having weight is important to causing damage.

You miss the context of this recommendation: if you make a staff from iron to give it Hardness of Adamantine, its weight is a multiple of a normal quarterstaff or Bo, so you need a way to significantly reduce it.

No, I didn't miss the context. The statement itself mostly missed that context and is now being changed. Retroactively changing a statement doesn't make comments about how it used to be in error.

The new statement about needing to reduce the weight of something that is too heavy is a good one.

It is just not new, but already implied in the context of my original post: it is the reason, why The Weightless Menhir got into it.

Only a quarter of the original comment might have even possibly fit that context and the new changes. Making an iron staff as light as a feather doesn't. Making a sword as light as a feather doesn't. Making a sword "as light as you like" doesn't.

Making a sword/staff as light as a feather with The Weightless Menhir is possible, so I mentioned it - useful or not. Making a sword "as light as you like" without otherwise changing the properties of its blade is very useful, though: bladesmiths worked on it for the centuries following the 13th, before coming out with schiavone and rapiers.

Cheers