Using Rego Craft with Chirurgy Questions.

Was considering applying some Rego to Craft: Chirurgy.
Spells for physical treatment of wounds (bandaging , cleaning , cauterizing , etc) seem fairly straightforward.
What if i want to apply Profession: Masseur (or Chirurgy) to invalids , to prevent wasting of muscles.
Day's work in an instant seems ok.
Would the patient get long-term or short-term fatigue from this?

Craft magic cannot kill people. (page 49 , Covenents)
So what if you applied the massage spell for longer durations?
Does the patient take so much fatigue damage they die?

Can you apply simple , gentle exercise (via Rego) to improve the physical condition of a patient?
If someone had the equivalent of a years physiotherapy in an instant , does it restore lost muscle tone?
(not increasing anything above what it would have been normally)

Would a Botch cause an Aging Crisis?

Not without a CrCo ritual spell. Or MuCo whose duration decides how long the muscles will last.

You can speed up natural regeneration but not beyond what would be possible with "perfect" physiotherapy lacking magic assistance(ie its much easier to get to the point of "perfect" with magic, but unless you start messing with the progression directly with the magic, you cant get better result than with "perfect" nonmagical treatment no matter what)... (ok that text became a bit messed up but hopefully you get the point)

I would say its more likely to cause a wound, but possibly yes.

I doubt if this is possible, ie one of the reasons for working is the time it takes and how its longterm. And it would probably be Medicine rather than Chirurgy.

The rules states (Covenant p.49): "However, Rego cannot create matter, so whatever is in the final product must be supplied as source material". So here's a first limitation: you might be able to improve the tone of the existing muscle, but it cannot add to their actual mass. But those rules were written with more usual crafts in mind anyway.

I believe that physiotherapy works by encouraging the muscles to improve themselves, not by improving the muscles directly. So while you might well be able to pack the benefits of a hour-long physiotherapy session in an instant, the real work is done in the following hours by the muscle themselves as they react to the exercise. Packing more physiotherapy into that instant won't do more, you still need the regular application of physiotherapy over a long period (basically as long as the person stays invalid).

As long as you are maintaining muscle tone, I don't think that the patient should receive fatigue at all from it - it's only the equivalent of some light exercise. But if you are actually trying to improve muscle tone, then long-term fatigue would be appropriate, as if the patient had taken a long walk (or run). I don't think you can kill the patient short of botching. In my opinion, the botch should be a wound rather than an aging crisis (pulled muscle / torn ligament / even a broken bone as you carelessly manipulate your puppet).

Not sure that massage for this purpose is very (European) medieval.

But anyway, I think, of course you could provide a full massage in an instant with ReCo. This just means that the Hermetic masseur can treat a lot of clients in a day. Repeated massage shouldn't have benefit for the patient. Once you've had your muscles exercised for the day, there isn't much point exercising them again.

Probably, the patient should get a short-term "massage daze" fatigue.

Assuming a Hermetic massage botch doesn't cause something weird and supernatural (like rubbing the character's lucky mole off), then it should probably cause what a coventional massage done wrong would cause --- i.e. a wound.

Although, having said that I wonder if there would be any benefit in having an instant massage? It surely wouldn't be very pleasant or relaxing.

Maybe a Hermetic massage would have to be Concentration Duration and last exactly the same length of time as a conventional massage. Massage is about a process rather than a result --- so avoiding the process seems to be missing the point.

My partner is a professional masseuse, so I feel almost qualified to comment...

I was thinking of patient care for invalids in a monastery hospital for example.
Maybe some roman bath style places associated with House Jerbiton.
Too early to get a Turkish Bath and massage in Constantinople then?
Unless those 4th Crusaders bought back some bath attendants. :mrgreen:

I was thinking that the fact that the word "massage" seems to only enter Western European languages in the 18th/19th century (derived from an Arabic word), meant that "massage" wasn't a common idea. However, looking further, the Latin derived equivalent (which is apparently) "frictionis" was used in a medical sense, at least as far back as the 16th century.

So, maybe it is not so outlandish after all.

I really and utterly disagree. Trying to perform such in an instant would almost be an automatic injury.
Far FAR too much force applied in just a moment.

Well, you could tone up the muscle using ReCo for the same result. Just like you don't have to hammer up a sword when using ReCo to craft it.

No, very very different. Muscles improve the most by repetition over time. For any instant improvement you simply have to create the muscles you want as a result. Simply applying the force of 10 hours of training to muscles would most likely snap them into ittybitty tiny parts. You could apply a MuCo spell to avoid that, but you would still not be able to get more than one instant worth of training. And that would be rather useless.

Something that would work would be to apply a spell with Sun duration. One that applies a tiny bit of additional resistance to any and all movements would probably be best, together with lots of exercise.


Not building up muscle as you seem to believe "tone up" means, but putting them in their normal rested state to allow the patient to do his physiotherapy exercises and thereby naturally improve by repetition of movement.

So yes, ReCo takes a few seconds to cast and provides the same as a full massage. And CrCo could keep the muscle fresh and unable to cramp for the duration of the spell.

Then you´re the first ever to use "tone" to mean anything else.

Massage for relaxation also works over time, making it instant has the same problem, to work it would require directly forcing the target body muscles to relax.
And massage works for improving physiotherapy also by being over time.

Yes that should work.

Why does force need to be applyed? You are not putting the character into some kind of mechanical mangler.

You are merely manipulating the state of the character's muscles...using magic. You are using magic not "force".

It seems like you are trying to imagine a technological / modern anatomical explanation of what could be done. That's not really relevant, because this is using Hermetic magic instead.

Perhaps, if you have to imagine a technological analogue imagine (instead of a mangler) that the character is being injected with a very fast acting combination muscle relaxer and muscle developer.

Because muscles wont relax just because you order them? Because thats what massage is?
Light massage over longer time is far more effective than anything over shorter time. And to try it instantly?
Its not going to work.

If you were using Muto, you would have a point. As it is, you´re using magic to apply force instead of using your own body to do it directly. Rego cant do something that isnt possible naturally. Speeding up massage to instant is extremely unnatural.

No im not. But if you can find even one medieval masseur that doesnt know that "the longer the better" and who wouldnt laugh at the idea of "instant" ill get you a cookie as prize.

Then we´re back to Muto or possibly Creo again. And I was NOT the person coming up with ideas of "mangler" or anything alike, including "technological" versions. But im reasonably well aquainted with physiotherapy.
You REALLY do NOT want to try and rush a masseur.

And in what way is this different from any other use of craft magic? Doing a days work in the process of a moment...

As the op on this topic i will second this question. :slight_smile:
I didn't think there was a clear answer , but definitely needed the forum Boni-sages help.

Unless you do it as Target: Group. One person can't benefit from a days massage in an instant.
So what does a spell like this do? Tenderize a body , which seems more Perdo if it harms them.

Personally I wouldn't refer to massage as craft at all - but rather assisted rest... Might perhaps be considered turning long-term fatigue into short term. Which offcourse cannot be done by hermetic magic.

I agree that real massage cannot be done instantly, but I don't see why you can't do it instantly with magic. Magic can "order" muscles to relax instantly.

Rego has nothing to do with forces. Forces is physics. "The Art of Rego allows a maga to change the state of a thing to some other state that the individual thing can naturally have." Because Rego has nothing to do with forces, you can use it to, say, parry a blow without worrying about momentem, and you can use Rego to move somebody at speed without worrying about acceleration.

You can also put a person to sleep instantly with Rego because it is natural for somebody to be asleep. The fact that it is not natural for somebody to fall asleep "instantly" does not matter. Likewise, a person can be "relaxed" naturally. There seems no reason why Rego cannot instantly take somebody from their current state to their post-massage state.

I changed my mind. See previous post. I think you can have a Rego "massage" occur instantly.

I still don't think that there would be any benefit in having an immediate repeat though. It would be like casting a spell to make somebody fall asleep twice. After the first casting, they are asleep. There is no benefit in making them fall asleep more.

True, but then we´re no longer talking about replicating a craft any more.