usng an arcane connection without arcane range

Looking over the limit of the arcane it occurs to me that an arcane connection could be used to target someone you cannot detect within, for example, voice range. You yell the spell, and if the person whose lock of hair you are holding can hear it then it wouldn't matter if you can detect exactly where they are. Does this track for everyone else? This seems especially powerful if used with, for example, an enchanted drum or large bell with 'voice' range which might cover miles.

I'm sorry, it may be the heat, but I can't make sense of your question.
Could you possibly clarify? Or is it clear to everyone else and I'm just brain dead due to the heat?

I have in my possession an arcane connection to person A, who is somewhere in the village I am walking through, but out of sight. I have crafted a voice range variation of aura of rightful authority, so while traveling through the village I cast the spell several times while clutching the arcane connection, with the intention of affecting person A.
Obviously since the range is not arcane connection this only works if they are within voice range (and also is not a ritual spell). Since they are inside somewhere I do not know where they are, aka I have not detected them.
The limit of arcane connection states that I can only target someone I have not detected if I have an arcane connection, but in this case I do have an arcane connection, so if I believe them to be home, locate their house and stand outside casting in a loud voice, will the arcane connection allow me to target them at voice range? As I read the rules I would think the answer is yes, but am wondering if this would be the consensus perspective.

Though admittedly the question might make more sense if they are in hiding after my grog bloodied their blade in conflict and I want to target them with an offensive spell at voice range...

No, ACs do not inherently allow you to target things you can’t sense. Assuming you aren’t using Sensory Magic targets or something similar, if you can’t sense them then it must be AC range or any range greater than Touch cast through an Invisible Tunnel effect.

Ah, I see p. 84. Well, maybe as a mystery initiation, or a breakthrough... how big of a breakthrough do you think that would be?

related question I thought I would throw into the same thread- if a newly apprenticed magus decided to try and earn vis by fixing arcane connections, how much would you be willing to pay for the service?

I think silveroak is correct. Seven-League Stride, for example, lets you teleport to 7 leagues so long as you see the destination or you have an arcane connection to the destination. Although it's built within the guideline, it's very similar to a range.

A sight spell wouldn't work well with this for obvious reasons - you need to see something to take advantage of the range. But there's nothing with Voice requiring you to see your target (or the target to hear you) - the reason you need to see your target with a voice spell is not due to the parameter but is due to the limit of the arcane connection which governs general hermetic magic. In fact, the first paragraph introducing ranges spells out the link to the Limit of Arcane Connection. An arcane connection allows you to bypass this limit (and it is stated nowhere that it lets you bypass it only by using the arcane connection range parameter you use). I think it would be fair to say that, if you shout and you have an arcane connection, if your target is within 50 paces, he's affected by the spell. This could be because he's invisible but within range, or it could be because he's right on the other side of that wall, but either way, I believe your spell works.

Actually it is so stated on page 84 of the core rulebook.

Arcane Connections allow a maga to cast
a spell on something she is not currently sens-
ing, as long as she is currently aware of the
Arcane Connection. Mystically, the Arcane
Connection is still a part of the target, thus
making the spell possible. However, the spell
must have a range of Arcane Connection, which
makes casting spells like this harder than casting
them on a target who is actually present.


I stand corrected. I guess it would be nice to also write that within the limit of arcane connections. When you're looking for a rule...

How are you going to feel like a master of the arcane hidden mysteries of the universe if the rules aren't arcane and tucked away where you least expect them?


I would interpret it as a new range, which is easier than AC and harder than voice, and not as flexible as sensory magic. New ranges are minor breakthroughs when they do not upset the Hermetic Limits, aren't they? That should fit this case too.

How can he a magus be newly apprenticed? I suppose you meant to write newly gauntletted ...

Barring an utterly anti-social magus, I would not insult the new sodalis by proposing less than the 3p (or maybe 4p) that they could extract from the aura. I suppose I could find some young magus sufficiently poor to accept that price, so that there would be no point in offering more. So 3p sounds fair. There might be exceptions in tribunals where vis is more abundant.

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As temprobe said, Voice is the range of the spell, period.
If the target can't hear you, it doesn't protect them (otherwise, deaf grogs would be all the rage :shushing_face:).

And to complement Loke's point, you could also do this as a non-standard range (serf's parma about the page reference, it's right after the explanation for R/D/T)).
You'd need to find the closest range being used (Voice IMO), and add 1 magnitude, so +3 magnitudes in total.
If doing a breakthrough, still IMO, you're certainly worthy of a minor virtue that allows you to use an AC to target an unsensed target who's within Voice range (+2)

Which is great. I mean, we just created a new minor virtue :smiley:

I proposed something quite similar on the Berk List in the '90s, using the blood of a fleeing bandit (who was presumably within Sight range but was "out of sight" due to it being twilight and darker by the second) to provide a bonus (or possibly automatic success?) on a targeting roll for a spell with an attack medium (e.g. Crystal Dart). I called it Arcane Targeting. It got some support, but there was never a consensus as I recall. Berk List being true to its Essential Nature and all...

It's more Mythic to allow something along this line than it is to not allow it.

Honestly, I was just remembering this old idea last night and considering reposting it. After I've had some time to think it over again(maybe run it by the troupe) I'll let y'all know what I/we come up with.


Currently some blood would increase the Penetration bonus.
Would you have to invent a whole new Arcane Talent to increase the Targeting bonus.

Or would we multiply the finesse score by the AC bonus, as we currently do with penetration?


That just might work! The rules appear to work the same in 4th, per WGRE and The Mysteries.
I just need to add the two pertinent tables to my Reference folder for table use and play testing.

Best I had so far thought of was adding a new Target of "Arcane Connection" (lower than T: Small), but that's really not very helpful (that I can see so far).

Perhaps treat the target who is in normal spell range but not seen/detected by the caster, as being Invisible.
There are rules for attacking an invisible character about p32 in HoH:S. Though Finesse is not mentioned, just Perception + Awareness.

There is also a bullet point saying the invisible character cannot be targetted by spells unless the caster has an arcane connection to the target, or is able to locate the target.

So perhaps a minimum Finesse roll of 9+ to send the spell in unseen directions, if you have the arcane connection.
OTOH, what happens if the Target of the spell is not in actual spell range? Then the Arcane Connection points to itself? (nothing larger within spell range) And the caster is Touching the Arcane Connection through the Parma Magica, so the spell targets the caster?!?

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That's a fiddly bit, indeed. One thing that has crossed my mind is that the use of the Arcane Connection could potentially activate the longer Range of a spell that is normally only available through the use of vis. Perhaps a bit of mystery lore, for those who like mystery cults in their sagas?

The minimum Finesse of 9+ isn't a bad suggestion at all, though depending on how players spend magus' XP in a saga, the Arcane Connection multiplier may make that easy peasy.

Usually, finesse in attack spells is used for targeting since this is an indirect attack that doesn't interact with parma magica, since the magic only launches the attack, it doesn't guide it. If you're planning on using an arcane connection to multiply finesse, I think you're missing the point, because by the time you've made your breakthrough, you've got a finesse-guided spell which interacts with parma, and is therefore worst than both a regular finesse spell and a regular spell that auto-targets without finesse.


But, none of your examples uses a freshly harvested Arcane Connection to Target the um, target, who is presumably within range but current location is unknown.

Besides, shouldn't a blood or hair AC bypass most magical protections? Wizards go to great lengths to keep those things out of other peoples' hands for a good reason.

Reminder: our saga uses 4th, where spell level is not subtracted from Penetration.