Verditius Contradiction

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

A Verditius with Elder Runes Enchants an item. The maximum he can enchant is MT*Phil number of pawns. (Lets postulate both are HIGH). He then attunes this as his Talisman...
The amount of Vis in the item is more than his highest Tech and Form...
This causes a couple of problems...

Can he reopen it when his MT or Phil go up? Under the normal rules, it would be pointless...
Greater Talisman Virtue: How does this affect things? Normally, a Talisman is built around a different scale...Would this allow the Magus to add a new component and additional Vis (up to MT*Phil)? (Yeah, its kind of like Reforging....What if the Magus had this Virtue as well...)

2

Ok, I'll take a stab at it...

A Verdi with Reforging&Greater Talisman can add components to (his)a Talisman, that was constructed using Elder Runes. The additional components are added to the Talisman, and the additional spaces are added to the Talismans limit. These additional materials must fit within the other guidelines..IE: Must be within his MT limit for number, must be within the limit of (MT*Philosophiae) number of pawns he can invest in a season, and...he must immediately (at the time of addition) invest all the Vis to open the new material added...

Comments?

3

The Verditus gets to use whatever rules are most favorable for his personal talisman.

Stephen

4

To some extent, the higher his Theory and Philosophae are the less likely the character will be able to completely fill the item (anyone who has half a queen of vim vis laying about needs to have their SG take off the kid gloves already). So in this light being able to later come back and fill the talisman seems like a pretty large advantage.

5

Problem: there isn't any rule here. :slight_smile:

Opinion.
How I got that much is not really the discussion..is it? (plus, why would I cut the thing in thirds at this point? :laughing: )

Pardon, but I don't follow this....Please explain...
Specifically "Fill"

6

Erm, yes, there is, quite clearly.

Okay, a moment while I walk through this, so everyone's on the same page (me included.)

A dedicated (ie, "large") character could, with specializations, easily have an effective MT of 10, and a Phil of, say, 8, for a product of 80 Vim vis(!). That same character would be hard pressed to have a 40/40 Te/Fo mix, which is usually(?) "archmage" territory, above and beyond simply "large". (And, no, I don't want to argue terms or possibilities. By the rules guidelines and without virtues it would require a character to be of mundane age ~50 to achieve the Abilities, but Hermetic age 120 for the Arts - that's disparate enough.)
[i]( See Erik's comment above re "half a queen of vis lying around", multiply that by 8/5, and the limit of it all being Vim vis!)[/i]

Now, to your question...

Yes, it would be. (Why am I reminded of Baldric, who's secret dream was to have a huge turnip in the country...) Anyway, since you seem keen on doing so, we likewise shall ignore that detail.

The rules state that the first step in a Tali is to "Prepare it for Enchantment", as one would for any Invested item. They don't say at this stage ~how~ that needs be done (the standard rules are presented, which by default are no greater than the special rules for a talisman, below), so, at this stage, the sky's the limit (and you're pretty close to breaking the Lunar limit, bucko!)

However, for Talismans, the rules state, explicitly (p 98, first column, bottom),...[b]"...The maximum number of pawns of Vim vis that can be used to prepare a talisman is equal to the sum of the magus' highest Technique and highest Form..."[/b]
So, unless the rules for Elder Runes specifically address and include talsimans*, the limit isn't the generic preparation, it's the Talisman preparation. That is, you can prepare items to MTxPhil to your heart's content, but if it breaks the rules for a Talisman (highest Te x highest Fo), it can't become a Talisman.
(* If the phrase you used above, "These additional materials must fit within the other guidelines" is from those rules, you're definitely SOL, sorry.)

Best bet is to prepare more than one item in one season, one of those items being the Talsiman, and be grateful for the seasons saved.

Otoh, if your Saga is such (as you imply) that you found a lump of ~150 Vim vis lying around (and no, I don't want to know), then ignoring the rules and having a Talisman much, MUCH bigger than Te x Fo may be in line with that. I won't tell you how to have fun, only what the RAW have referring to your question.

Good Gaming! :wink:

7

"...The maximum number of pawns of Vim vis that can be used to prepare a talisman is equal to the sum of the magus' highest Technique and highest Form..."

You are cherry picking the rules here to make your point...Quote the whole thing...
Quote:
Finally, a Talisman becomes very easy to enchant and its capacity for enchantment is greatly increased. The capacity of the Talisman independent of its shape and material and instead depends on the power of the magus to whom it is attuned. The maximum number of pawns of Vim vis that can be used to prepare a talisman is equal to the sum of the magus' highest Technique and highest Form. Unlike other items, the capacity of a Talisman may be opened a bit at a time. A magus could open one pawns worth every season if he wished. though that is inefficient.

What is being referred to here is EXPANDING the capacity of the Talisman, not making it your Talisman.
So...

Again: Opinion. Your presentation is not supported in the RAW, though your are trying to say it is...

The point you are making is also void by the NEWER 'Elder Runes' rules. These rules violate the rules for item creation. You therefore have to take that into account when you try to go back to the Original rules.
When you add in the rules for 'Greater Talisman', this further changes the possibilities...

Read again: that was me taking a 'stab' at providing fodder for discussion.

Never met the guy.

Laying about? :unamused:
Discussion in another thread talked about the amount of Vis collected in a year by a Covenant and gave a per Magus distribution...roughly 10 pawns per year to an average Covenant. We don't get that much per year.
The character in question is Verditius...Make an item by the Verditius House rules...Include 20 pawns in the item, and see how many pawns you charge...and get back...
Have your apprentices distill it...
You distill it.
Trade other Vis for it.
Trade services for it.
If you take all that and factor it into about ~60~ years of game time...(shrug), I don't see your problem there. Works out to about 2.5 pawns per year....
Anyone get three or more pawns per year from their Adventures/Covenant?

Really? What were you doing then?

8

Since it is a fuzzy spot in the rules, I might lean towards you can "reforge/expand" your talisman capacity to your new MT*Phil. but to do that you need the reforging mystery, and then need some sort of breakthrough, (minor?) to apply that knowledge, by doing this you'd follow the original steps used to make the item. So if a new component has been added, via greater talismen mysterys, then that capacity could now be included.

Being that I don't really deal with items hopefully that made some sort of sense.

9

Pointing out the part of the Rules As Written that limits your wishful interpretation. What I was not doing was telling you to goose step to that limitation.

But I'll tell you what I'm definitely not doing any more, bucko. Wasting time responding to your snark.

CH out.

10

Not to come in with cold water after the discussion is rolling, but Verditious elder runes does not change the vis capacity of items. It changes how many pawn of vis a magus can use in a season when enchanting a device. (Mystery cults page 128).

Certainly a verditious could use his expanded capacity to open up an object with greater capacity than a magus without the virtue, but the capacity of the object is set by its size and material (or the magus's scores in the case of an item that has been attuned as a talisman) not how many pawns of vis a character can use.

11

Wow, for a minute I thought I thought this was the Berklist!

Then again, who am I to talk? I am the most infamous one on that list!

But I am confused about something. Granted, I do not have TMRE yet, so I don't know what a Greater Talisman is supposed to do. BUT it seems that the basic RAW can run you into this problem too.

Lets assume you are a magus of any house with a score of 5 in every Art and a Magic Theory of 8. You open a steel sword, 15 pawns, within your limit. Okay, done. You then decide to make it your talisman, but now you are 5 over your limit of Highest Tech & Form.

What to do? I think solving this basic RAW conundrum should solve your dillema with the supplement rules.

And no snarking or snark back! Save that for the Berklist! That's what it's for!

12

But if you have a high MT you can easily incorporate enough shapes/materials at sizes that allow you to fully utilize the extended capacity.
Which brings us back to the question. Can a verdi "reopen" a greater item that he has attuned as a talisman to gain the benefit of increased MT or philosophi and if they have greater talisman would adding materials increase the capacity?

13

The Verditious mystery concerns how much vis a character can use in a season not how much capacity an item has. From the interpreting rules as written and for logical consistency of both the rules and setting I can't personally see any justification whatsoever for having the capacity increased.

But going beyond the printed rules to personal opinion.

From a game balance point of view I'm not in favor of making Verditious elder ruins even more powerful. The doubling (even with associated penalties) of multiple art scores already makes this minor virtue one of the most powerful virtues in the game (major or minor). Interestingly enough I don't see the increased vis capacity granted by the virtue as that big of a deal compared to the compared to the art score doubling. We talk abut it more, but aside from a few seasons saved opening items and an extra point or two in matching effects bonuses there's little that a character can do with a single monster item that they couldn't do with a handful of lesser items.

From a story point of view lets suppose that our character has, (with specialties, puissant abilities and so on) magic theory 12 and philosophy 9 so they can use 108 pawns per season but their original talisman was opened with "only" 77 pawns. They've now go a talisman with 750 levels of effects and they can only instill 20 more but they'd like to install a level 40 effect. This talisman is clearly the focus of the character. They've probably spent many years enchanting it. If the talisman fills up then you have to either change the focus of the magus having them enchant items that aren't his talisman, or tell some stories about how the magus can overcome this limitation through research, mystery initiation, or some such method, or scrap the existing talisman and start over (not fun for the player). In a game where there isn't time to run a story about how the character manages to break the rules, and where the caracter is a talismantic monomaniac I can see ... no I can't, If the character is really that focussed on their talisman you should tell the darn stories rather than glossing them over with a house rule. If having an unlimited capacity on a talisman is a natural byproduct of becoming immortal then it can't be impossible to research.

14

No doubt. Never seen it, nor wish to, but from what I've heard... :unamused:

Actually, that's an unusual combo, IME - the MT is on the high end, and the scores are all on the lower end. I think it would be the exception, and not the rule.

But, let's stick with it as an example - that or something close enough.

The rules for Tali's expand the potential, and in a manner "most" magi can take advantage of. Once prepared, sword could is fixed, can't be changed. But as a Tali, once those Arts do go up (2 seasons, +4 in one Te & one Fo would be too easy), it can begin to be expanded.

And so on indefinitely.

(The diff between this and the above is that this acknowledges the basic rules - it's in the same section - and nothing that U. posted above mentioned that Elder Runes "over ruled" the basic rules of talismans.)

A subtle distinction, and one that makes much more sense. Too subtle for some, apparently. Don't have those rules at hand - thanks for that.

15

I was trying to set my example for mathematical extremities. That score arrangements is odd, but theoretically possible, and helps for me to examine the argument closer. I aslo did not understand there was an Elder Runes confusion (that book I do have).

But anyway, just to be clear (and I think I agree with you); You use the Shape & Material to calculate how much vis to open it, but if you make it a talisman, you don't worry about the two-art sum until after that number has risen higher?

Or are you saying that once I make my sword a talisman, it's capacity drops from 15 to 10? Or I can't make it a talisman until I get my arts higher?

I think you suggest the first, which is what I would do, and I think the same answer can be applied to the primary question as well.

16

The rules in the core book actually say that the capacity increases (they were written before the verditioius mysteries). I think that vis used to open the item wouldn't go away.

17

I somewhat agree with you in principle, but what is vis good for?
Assume a spring covenant that invests a decent number of points
in vis sources. Heck just assume the medium vis guidelines
in the text. Vis that isn't used gets stocked. Vim is a nice choice
to have for income since everyone needs it and it's awkward
to describe new sources that are clearly vim instead of another
form.

I have had a character use some 50 pawns in one combat
--and lose. So I think that's an overgeneralization.

I realize this is a terrible derailing tangent =D

18

The Berklist is awesome. The main reason I am here is because the list is down right now. I'm just pointing out the Forum isn't really any different (there was a debate over there along these lines)

Sorry for derailing the thread. To stitch it back together, allow me to make a comment on vis. The amount of vis one has and can use really doesn't mean much in and of itself, its how much they have and can use in comparison to other magi, pc & npc.

I spent 20 pawns tring to slay a frost giant with a death spell. I rolled a freaking 0. I had the spell mastered, and out of a horde of botch dice I only wound up with 4 warping points altogether. Of course, I was unable to avoid or control twilight, so I fell out of the sky into a snowbank and broke both my legs. Good thing I had six elite custos to drag me out while my Merinita buddy distracted the giant.

I had a friend drop 30 pawns trying to kill a dragon with a PeAn death spell. First shot failed. He dug into all his reserves to try again, another 30. He had a real moment of fear and hesitation, knowing that his odds of botching were huge. He succeeded, killed the dragon, and now is very poor in vis (and in debt for some other project).

And it is custom for Flambeau magi to carry around a few rooks in an item of jewelry, reserved for use as a last ditch defense (the fons et origio).

So you see, the amount isn't as important as the actual effects of use. I always figured vis should be more plentiful in 5th edition. Heck, it now only adds +2 per pawn instead of the old +5, so it is much safer as a sg to be more generous with it.

Just my humble opinion.

19

The capacity would never drop, if you used the basic rules to prepare it. (If you use, say, some confused interpretation of Elder Runes, I'd say it would drop.)

(re vis - if it risks derailing the thread, and you're excited about the topic, feel free to start a new one! But I think many folk hear that one line echo in their heads... "...ten rooks make a queen, a legendary quantity...") 8)

20

LOL, I meant if my defense of the Berklist was derailing the thread. I came up with the bit about vis to try and steeer it back towards the topic (Berklist is back btw).

As for the Talisman issue, I do not have TMRE yet (but I do have HoH-MC), so the discussion confused me at first.

Here is a Talisman related question (and I'll steer it back towards Verditius if I can next time):

Lets say my best Art pair was 16's each, a 32 pawn capacity. The rest are all 8's. I open it most of the way, say to 28. I can go 4 more, but I wait. Then I am hit with a horrible Twilight episode that gives me a Deficiency in one of the Arts (say the Form, because that was the kind of vis I botched with). So now, my best Art pair is calculated as 24.

Should the capacity drop from 28 to 24? If not, am I restricted still from going uo to 32?

In this case, unlike switching from Greater Investment to Talisman, I would say yes, the capacity should drop. This isn't just a change in the type of enchantment, this is a Flaw you have been suddenly afflicted with.

But now lets say we have the Greater Device to Talisman conundrum in addition to the Twilight. Before Twilight and before making it a Talisman, my Magic Theory and whatever else was good enough to allow me to open a Ruby for enchantment, 25 pawns. I plan to make it my Talisman and take it up to 32, then Twilight hits. My best pair totals to 24.

I know it's a trivial amount. That's not the point. But should the Talisman drop a point in capacity?

I am now thinking that maybe it should. No matter what, because a Talisman is such an intimate personal item, the capacity should always be limited to Te+Fo. Even the sword example from above. If doing this hurts you, then maybe you are not yet ready for a Talisman