Very Nasty Spell for Apprentices

Games Discussion Ars Magica
21

I believe it would be MuCo(Aq).

I would allow the spell to work under any circumstances that there was a mundane object: head, rock, pinapple, pumpkin, bag of flour, you name it.

I asked my SG specifically "If I make a ReTe spell to turn a blade into a pretzel shaped blade does it actually twist into this shape...or for that matter if I change the blade into a long coil of wire?" The answer was no, one second it is a perfectly useful blade the next it is well rather less useful. Using the logic of this there is NO reason to add complexity due to the fact you might under some circumstances penetrate an object. In principle the spell could care not a whit.

You might add complexity for other reasons...such as the fact it is an extreme modification...that would seem to me to be an almost Rego thing not really a Muto... I could infact see you doing exactly the same sort of thing with a ReTe spell.

You might even require a finese roll or somehting like that since the helments would be anything but uniform in make (under normal conditions anyway they are more likely a fairl motley collection).

But the fact that the spikes go into someone head, or a rock or bag of flour I don't see how that effects anything.

I'd be inclined to make "Group" a bit harder then normal given the likely variation inside the group and also add a finese roll. But I'm not sure either can be justified by the existing guidelines.

If a SG thinks its too powerful then I don't see a problem with them saying "Nope, that doesn't work." But strickly by guidelines it should work as the creator intends.

I find this sort of spell pathetic since killing mundanes with magic is so trivial that my mage generally speaking refuses to use magic when fighting mundanes.

22

Instant effect: I disagree with your SG on the instant effect of Rego spells, but that may be just a difference of opionions, and in any event I have no problem with Muto spells being instant.

The best technique for the job: Probably Mu, as this happens to be very similar to the Teeth of the Earth Mother.

Anyways, if your SG says this is okay for your saga, who am I to argue. Such a spell would, with our group be unable to pierce the skull of the person wearing the helm, but might make the helmet be held fast by the spikes, and cause the target some pain - giving a slight minus (equal to a light wound maybe) until the helmet was removed.

23

Well he hasn't said this spell is ok...I rather suspect at least one of them would have a fit over it, all I am saying is that I doubt that one SG would say the spell would not work as the creator intends. Based on what he said...that the spell effect is instantaneous...there is no time for the change from one state the other. In this case the helmet would go from being a helmet to being a helmet with internal spikes.

I could be wrong on how they view this spell but this up to the two SG's to comment on themselves.

Its not a spell I would use but I don't see why it would not work as the creator intends...baring the inclusion of a finess roll which is clearly required, to target the helmet. Also it would require a significant amount of metal...so your average chain mail hauburk might not be too easy to do this. The damage would depend a lot on the armor the person had I think...and since there is no guarrentee the helmet would be targeted or that infact the spike would otherwise target something vital since it is by no means specified where in the amour it forms. So it should have a damage effect depending on targeting roll and armour type. This clearly needs further work. But the "principle" of the spell is sound...it also makes me think of the Order of the Stick and "Evards Intrustive Spiked Tentacles" that Vaarsuvious threw at the chrimera... ewwwwww...yuck!

24

In certain ways I think this sort of spell really shows the varying camps in the Ars Magic community.

Some would allow it because the spell follows the guidelines, more or less (yes, there are questions regarding tweaking levels, but nothing overly serious).

Some would raise the level simply because it does damage, even though there is nothing in the guidelines that would require them.

Some would disallow it because magi wouldn't do such things.

Some would allow it, but say that many magi would belittle it, as it is something that only harms mundanes, thus lacks any display of knowledge.

I think the point here is that there are many, many takes on how Ars Magica is played. Some are more fantastical than others (witness some of the options available in Covenants such as permanent ice caves) while others are more recreationist (witness, same supplement, the economics rules). Some are more combat oriented, while others seem to be less so. In other words, while I think there is a lot of room for discussion on this type of spell, I believe that no true consensus will be arrived at due to the many variations in play styles.

And, heck, to my eye, all I'd do to tweak the spell is remove the spikes aspect -- just use ReTe to twist and crush the helmet. Same effect, more or less, and roughly the same level (not really looking at books at the moment), without the additional hassle of "to spike or not to spike".

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25

Yeah, one could also seal the face area blinding the character, possibly suffercating him based on how tight the seal is.

Mechanically speaking, this is a classic "Hold Person" Dillema. Certain spells kill outright these are traditionally a high level. Certain spells 'bind' people and are traditionally low level. Yet these low level spells with time (one round?) can mimic the high level effect (kill someone). This fact often makes for controversy because the low level 'shouldn't' beable to do high level stuff.

I don't have my rule book here so I'm not going to make my ruleing on the spell.

I agree people need to make a call on the style of play they want. I would remind the players that if you can think of it, so can other people. So either this is a common spell that ALL magi have access to, or it's brand new, but not for long. As soon as this spell is 'revealed', other magi will be quick to emulate and soon everyone will have it.

Also, in a world where spikes inside the helmets is common, I would think helmets aren't used, possibly armor in general isn't used (as variants can be made). Sounds like an arms race is on where either the spell isn't used at all so people can wear armor or the spell exists and metal defense is considered foolish.

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26

Actually, Ulf. The point is that the spell kills a person by rapidly growing spikes on the inside. No creo, as nothing is created. No perdo, as nothing is destroyed. According to the rules, as opposed to house rules or what have you, it is that simple.

27

AngusGM actually hits the nail on the head, though this quote actually brings up the noob-oriented point I was making.

I was simply looking for the simplest, most-effective means of a mage defending himself versus an angry warrior in armor and with sword, within the rules as written. It's the "rules as written" portion, as that's how us noobs tend to play until we get a feel for a particular system. Learn, then monkey till your heart's content, but one must know the rules before breaking them, as the spell is correct as per the rules, if not in terms of game balance or morality (neither of which was ever the point of the question).

As for who would learn it, or whether it would be beneathe a mage, I am again thinking of real world versus not-terribly-realistic game environ. If I were attacked, the best means of defense is the one that stops the assailant as quickly as possible with as little personal risk as possible. This spell again fulfills that requirement. It's a simple equation. My hide is more important to me than that of an assailant. Therefore, it is in my best interest for him to go away/cease/die as quickly as possible. There's no glory in it, merely expediency and efficiency.

This is an amazing game, but is much easier to navigate with an experienced SG. That's not a slam, but a thing to be aware of, because I very much doubt I'm the only noob (1 session under my belt! WOOHOO! Love it even more now!) who will come up with this. And that's my concern and what the example was intended to point out. I'm looking for clarification and ideas as to how other people handle things that go beyond the necessarily limited scope of the rules as they are written.

Thanks again to everyone,
Brian

28

The game environment is a realistic as you let it be.

Killing helpless mundanes with magic is a trivial action. It is not what the game is about to me though certainly some play it that way. If you or your character feel this is an acceptable response then that is your business at the end of the day.

The spell is simply not exciting for me, it isn't the be it, end it of mundane killing spells, the fact it is low level is nice but so what? The only thing that is not kosher to me is that you forgot a finesse roll and that is required I believe. The damage should then depend on how good the roll is.

The spell isn't going to cause people to stop wearing metal armour, it isn't going to revolutionise warfare, it is simply one of dozens of possible alternatives to dealing with being attacked by a mundane.

29

The simplest solution to mundane attacks for a magus using the rules as written is to mildly enchant their weapons & armour so they bounce off parma...

V.

30

I'm in agreement with all of that, Paul. I'm not a warmongering player by any means. Creating this spell was merely an exercise. My own character doesn't and won't know it for pretty much the reasons you've laid out.

This has all brought up another point for me, though. Why isn't the Order of Hermes at least secretly in charge of Mythic Europe? Take a bunch of people who had rough childhoods (as anyone without the Gentle gift is sure to have had, having grown up with mundanes who, at best, view them with suspicion), and give them the keys to creation. They've got reason to be bitter, they've got power beyond the ken of mundane minds, they're more knowledgeable than the mundanes, no mundane can really stand against them. All in all, they are the evolution of mankind, a bunch of little godlings who could carve whole kingdoms if they chose to and no one other than God could say differently.

Sure, many mages like quite lives of study, pushing the boundaries of what is possible and all that, but wouldn't some (if not many) see ruling as a challenge worthy of their skills? I'm thinking in particular of those magi of houses Tytalus (defined by conflict) and Tremere (who seem to resemble a medieval version of the Illuminati as much as anything else). One has only to look at history to see that power is a temptation that is hard to resist, and that most people with hoardes of power use it badly.

Having the Gift doesn't make you smarter, after all, and the Gift doesn't discriminate when it shows up. The training makes you knowledgeable, but it doesn't make you wise. House Tytalus revels in change and conflict, after all. Likewise, House Jerbiton mingles and meddles among the mundanes already. Wouldn't rule be attractive to at least a large minority of them?

Again, this is an intellectual exercise and nothing more. It ain't my cuppa in terms of play. I'm just following observations of human behavior and power to logical conclusions. I read in the book or on here that magi aren't interested in ruling, but that seems shallow to me as no reason for this is given, and because human nature flies in the face of that statement.

Would I want to play in such a Saga? Nope. I'm happy to take a lot of things on faith when it comes to playing, and I'm not that into the heavy intrigue and powermongering that such a saga would entail. It's just a series of thoughts that ran through my mind.

But if the magi decided it was time to rule, who, other than God, could stop them?

31

Actually it would be God who would stop them...well his representive the Church anyway. If the Order attempted to exert control over mythic Europe then the Chruch would take an active role in squashing it...and its likely to succeed simply by numbers alone.

In the past the fact that the Order was far more of a secretive thing also contributed to this.

But the reason that you don't get too many interested in ruling the world is simply because exploring the gift doesn't really allow you the time to do so. Either you rule the world or else you study magic. If you don't believe me please have a look at the covenent project and take a look at what the various magi did with their time...you will see that the ones who did things other than study droped behind substantially in terms of overall magical developement.

Also someone with the gift would have a trouble with social interactions and ruling the world requires social interactions. In practice they would find that actually accomplishing tasks...Leading (using the Canadian Armed Forces definition of "Influencing Human Behavior to accomplish the mission in the manner desired by the leader.") would be nearly impossible since trust and so forth would be messed up by the gift.

So the reason they don't rule the world is likely that they aren't fundamentally interested in such, those that would be discover that the required social interaction is deep sixed, even when that is not the case they find that ruling the world doesn't actually give them anything they could not have in the privacy of their tower but does cause them substantial headaches.

True you might get a meglomanic or two...but likely they would be "eliminated" by the order which seeks to not antagonise the chruch.

Also consider why would they want to rule the world? Gold? Women? Power? All these things the mage has anyway...so what does he gain for the effort he has to expend to one conquor it and two (the more difficult and time consuming bit) rule it?

Basically I suspect in the end the incentive is just not sufficient to pry them out of their laboratory.

32

Eldragil, because every christ is part of the divine as the mages are and the power of the divine is greater than all.
Humans are NOT realm-less.

33

It's true that humans are not realmless, but most also lack True Faith. Even so, Paul's answer is more than sufficient for my noob mind. Those are some fairly compelling reasons. Too much bother for not enough reward. Still, I would imagine some Gentle Gifted Jerbiton might play what amount to human chess games, not ruling out front, but certainly exerting influence behind the scenes.

34

The Jerbiton be better not caught by his sodales, though. They might not care to lord it over pesky, bothersome mundanes - but they certainly detest another magus doing so, and using his clout among mundanes as a resource in conflicts that ought to remain Hermetic.

Kind regards,

Berengar

35

Also sounds like Tytalus to me. Or Tremere. Or heck, maybe even Trianomae. If they're doing it behind the scenes, they don't necessarily need the Gentle Gift, either. :slight_smile:

36

Ok earlier in the week I gave my opinion and thoughts on the spell, but avoided a spell ruling because I didn't have my books. For those who don't know my I make a strong effort to make a 'by the book' ruling with as few vauge modifiers as possible. Many of you know I've been wrong, so by no means consider this 'the law'. Having said this, here is my take on the spell.

First, this is some room for arguement (as the board shows) because this is a Muto effect. Ars5 clearly details Muto spells can cause damage (Crystal Dart) and 'move' stone (Teeth of he Earth Mother). However I think that we have been looking at these spell effects and ignoring the core definitions of Hermetic Techniques.

Again there is room for debate here, but this is my interpretation:

Muto p78 "...can grant or remove properties something cannot naturally have"

It continues to say, "...Muto magic can neither injure nor kill someone directly..."

Because of this I do not believe this effect can be a Muto Spell.

Consider the description of Rego
Rego p78 "...allows a maga to change the state of a thing to some other state that the individual thing can naturally have."

It continues to say, "...shape a piece of stone into a statue..."

Because the spikes on the inside of the helmet do not possess an unnatural quality I believe the spikes must be created with Rego Magic.

Therefore this is my understanding of how the spell might look:

Doom of the Magical Migrane 'Redux'
Rego Terram
Base 3 Control or move dirt in a very unnatural fashion
+2 to control metal
Requiste: Muto +1
Range: Voice +2
Duration: Momentary +0
Target: Individual +0
Rego Terram (Req: Muto): 20

This spell causes jagged metal to form on the inside of a helmet causing pain and lacerations across the face and head of the wearer. Damage is +10 and armor soak bonus may not be applied to soak damage. The helmet must be cut off as lifting or pulling it off will cause an addition +10 damage. Targeted characters must make a brave roll of +12 or lose one round of actions. The brave roll occurs because attacks to ones face and eyes are distracting and disconcerting.

This spell description is loosely based on Earth's Carbuncles description.

At level 20 this is still a 'cheap' spell, but it possess a Requisite which suggests this is outside the scope of mere apprentices.

If one wanted to kill a target OUTRIGHT I believe the spell merits either a +1 or +2 modifier to account for a "Complicated Effect." This would raise the total level to 25 or 30. I consider this reasonable and 'fair'. While a lower level than the other instant death spells, this spell has a Requisite which causes it to be more difficult to cast.

37

Why the muto requisite? To me this has always seemed more a rego spell anyway since you are just reforming the metal of the helmet.

Also it requires a finess roll since you are targeting the helment specifically.

Finally that damage level makes no sense. I hate to say this but cutting your face is not going to cause you significant wounds, nor is cutting your scalp...your head is well protected and unless you cut the neck (which is terminal) you do no signifcant damage to anyone. You bleed to beat the band but nothing more.

So an automatic light wound makes more sense and the brave check.

38

One question, presuming that the extra damage is done because of the spikes as the helmet is moved, wouldn't this be avoided because the spell is of momentary duration? Or do I need to reread Rego rules some more?

39

With momentary it would be, I would think. With a longer duration, it becomes another matter. Of couse, the real danger in a puncture wound comes when you remove the impaling object which may otherwise be sealing blood vessels.

40

I thought about this for a while. First I wanted to establish that this is a Rego effect, not Muto. My observation is that Rego Terram spells that strickly move items are Rego. Rego Terram spells that involve 'shaping' have a Muto Req. I said this spell was based loosely on Earth's Carbuncle, which has a Muto Req. So does Hands of Grasping Earth. I felt the reshaping of the metal to form spikes merit the Muto Req.

Agreed

Again I based it on Earth's Carbuncle. Perhaps 'jagged' is not an appropriate description. The original spell said spikes. Spikes suggest instant death. I didn't feel the spell merited instant death so I took wording from Earth's Carbuncle and said jagged, which may not suggest enough damage. What about 'short jagged spikes stab into the wearer's head causing +10 damage.

The reason I am relucant to say automatic light wound is I simply don't like spells that do automatic damage. I think characters merit a roll, even it's just against their Sta.

Ars 5 p112 Momentary "In many cases the effects of the spell will endure long after the spell itself finishes."

I think reshaping the rock would result in naturally occuring spikes to remain on the helmet.

I'm not a doctor, but that's why I included an additional damage check if the helmet is pulled off.