I would say that "directly" means that you cannot injure someone by casting a Muto effect on them.
i.e. it is impossible to invent a MuCo "target has a gaping wound" spell. Or a MuCo "ribs twist into jagged and malevolent spikes, plunging into the target's heart" spell.
Unfortunately, this also prevents MuCoTeIg to fill someone's bones with molten lead (Ig req so it is hot molten lead)
Reshaping another medium, which then inflicts damage, is not "directly" injuring them.
The spell is indirectly inflicting damage.
Though the definitions of Muto and Rego clearly indicate this is a ReTe spell.
The original spell killed the person by putting spikes in their head. The version I created was more consistent with the rules, causing damage- not death.
I looked through the book again and frankly I'd be inclined to make this a creo spell.
It could in principle be done by muto or rego but well the problem is that for it to function you need to maintain the shape of the helm which seems more problematic the more I think of it.
Also the little spikies...trouble is Helm's have padding (or else the person wears such), and often a metal coif under them (depends on the exact helm) so they would actually accomplish little.
So since you are talking legitametly about adding to the amount of metal in the helmet I think it should be a creo spell. Targeted, instant death...shrug not sure what level this makes it.
And how is piercing the padding and/or coif different from piercing the skull? My point earlier was that this spell, as written, should be unable to pierce anything...
Ulf, the difference is the the changed spell made little spikies or jaggies or whatever, and that won't do much since they will end up sitting on the padding or the coif.
The original spell on the other hand made 6" spikes which just came into existance...if your head was in the way then they formed in your head. They don't grow, they don't pierce, they just are there.
I don't know about you but a 6" spike is a fairly lethal object to have in your head.
Stop thinking about growing, extruding, piercing or anything else. That isn't happening. The magic simply makes the spike appear there. Just like one second you have nothing in your hand, the next second there is a creo'd ball of (insert material). The fact it forms in empty air is no different then forming it inside someone (baring a finesse roll). Or if it is, someone should post what rule covers that because I have never seen one.
I can make smoke or water or tar or fire or a pile of oak leaves appear in your lungs and you die since you can't breath so I don't see how this is any different...or as one player used that fresh air so he could breath underwater.
I think it should be creo because the others which require reshaping the helm would destroy a lot of the integrety of the helm...but changing a helm into a helm with a wire mesh inside it streching accross the rim (and hence making your skull swiss cheese like) is not dissallowed by the rules. The fact there is a skull in the way has no effect on the spell (be it muto or rego or creo). Any damage is incidental to the effect...I use a MuHe spell to change the wood of the bridge under you to leaves and you fall to your death as you plunge through it and into the chasm below is the same sort of thing.
Lets say I use a MuHe(Au) spell to change the wood floor under you to air, then when the spell ends the wood reforms...what happens to you? Given you are standing on the ground and the wood reforms through your ankles or shins? This is the same thing...I'm not even sure what would happen in this case with parma...
The elephant is incidental to the issue. You can't lift an elephant with a coin because the elephant won't fit on the coin...but assume you have an elephant standing on a wooden platform and you ReHe the platform then the elephant goes with it. There are no rules that stop that from happening. Magic doesn't obey physics.
There are in the description of the ReCo spells statements on the weight you can carry but where these come from is never stated (and I would need to check to see if they made it into ArM5).
But this is a different question since all that it changes is the magnitude of the spell...not if it is possible or not. I can use magic to lift an elephant standing on a wooden platform, it is only a question of what level of spell that requires.
I can use magic to reshape a helm into a crown of thorns if I so choose. Why should it matter if someone is wearing the helm? Should creating a fire in an empty room be easier than doing the same thing in a room full of people?
To prevent this from getting confused due to Rego - Muto differences lets look at something purely muto.
Lets take a MuHe(Au) spell that changes wood into air or mist...
If I dissappear a stack of wood just to impress friends...
or
If I dissappear a door to get into a room...
or
If I dissappear the wood of a suspension bridge plunging someone to their death...
is there any difference in the spell level? In other words does how I indend to use the spell change the level of the spell? Because at the end of the day that is what people are objecting to.
The spell in question is no different then a spell that changes a sword into a spool of wire or a pretzel shaped piece of metal and doubt anyone would argue about that effect.
No, there is no change in lvls for the intention behind the spell. However, as you pointed out, you wanted spikes to form inside human flesh. That is where we disagree. My opinion is that the change thus involves human flesh, and requires a requisite for it. And, if you want to destroy the part of the head the spikes go through (rather than moving it aside or changing it) you need perdo.
Well I don't see why I need Co because the spikes go through human flesh sometime.
Lets say for the sake of arguement that the spell causes a spike to join the band of the helmet from one side to the other in the middle (that is basically a 6" spike anyway).
Since what fills the helmet at the time is not known then the spell must have a variable requisit Cr(or Mu or Re)Te(x) where x is dependant on what fills the helmet...if the helmet is empty you need Au, and then if varies depending on what else is there. Is this reasonable? I don't see other spells that require this sort of thing so I don't think so. If I fill the helmet with water I doubt anyone would say the spell needs an Aquam requisit to work.
The Perdo Requisit is much more reasonable. Though again I am not sure it is required, it is not unreasonable and makes some sense (as it gets around really odd things otherwise happening). This is a bit where the techniques overlap and frankly I really don't know what to say. The shape change must be allowed since that is allowed under Cr (in the sense that you just outright make the spike), Mu, and Re.
If I create a block of stone underwater then do I have to perdo the water out of the way? Or better if I create a block of stone under the ground what happens (this is really the same thing as we are talking here). Or if I take either a CrTe, MuTe or ReTe(Ig?) and make some sand in the middle of a pile into glass (or outright make glass with the Cr effect) then what happens?
And no >I< don't want anything. My comment is just about the spell effect in principle. It's not my spell at all.
Actually that is pecisly where the disagreement comes (perhaps we should both re-read the previous posts but that's the impression that I recieved).
the muto spell is aparently either applying force, or muto-ing the displacement or transformation of someones head.
Muto-ing a body into a solid inanaimate object is base 25 effect , add requisites for terram and perdo (because you are doing direct damage with your muto spell), range voice , duration momentary, target part => level 50 (I didn't worry about the momentary duration because of the perdo requisite).
If you want to put spikes on the inside of a helmet
I can see level 10 -base 3 (base 1 change one property of dirt +2 magnetudes for metal) +2 voice, +1 diameter, +0 individual. But this spell changes metal it doesn't change skulls.
The problem is we are discussing magic, I have no idea how magic works in the situation of 2 objects occuping the same space. I am working on the fact when I asked my story guide if a Re effect had a duration he said no. So I cast a ReTe spell on your sword...one moment it is a sword, the next it is what I want it to be. So in principle the act of change doesn't use force or time.
Basically if I CrTe a block of stone exactly where you are standing what happens to you? At the end of the day I don't see why it changes anything if you happen to be where I make the stone or not...the consiquences to you are of course different.
Most people, myself included, have avoided the 2 objects occupying the same space question without thinking about it...and here we are confronting it. I don't find it surprising that there is a serious difference in opinion on what happens.
Here is the question that I think summarises the situation:
I have a MuTe(Aq) spell that changes stone into water. I cast it on the floor, the several people standing on the floor are now standing in water for a momement until the spell ends then the water returns to being stone.
What happens to the people standing ankle deep in the water? That pretty much answers the question about the spike spell.
In that case the water is the stone, so when it turns back, any one in it will be encased. But at no point did they occupy the same space as the water, so they do not occupy the same space as the stone.
It should be easier than inside of a solid block of marble, that's not where fires go. Likewise, it should be eaiser to start a fire in an empty room than in someone's skull.
It is the nature of Air and open space to move aside when new things are placed in them. The same cannot be said for the human body.
The spikely helm spell may well transform the helm into a spike helm that balances precariously attop the head of its wearer but having spikes pounded through the wearer's head is a genuinely different thing.
Doom of the Magical Migrane 'Redux 2'
Rego Terram
Base 3 Control or move dirt in a very unnatural fashion
+2 to control metal
Requiste: Muto +1
Range: Voice +2
Duration: Momentary +0
Target: Individual +0
Rego Terram (Req: Muto): 20
This spell causes metal spikes to form on the inside of a helmet. If the caster succeeds at a finess roll of 6+, the Helmet will no longer offer protection to the wearer instead adding a +10 to any dammage received by impact on the helmet & attempts to remove the helmet will require a dexterity roll of 6+ or will cause +0 dammage.
Viceralus of Tytalus invented this spell to make an example of how mundane protection were ineffective against true mages. In his presentation, he asked: "How well protected do you feel now?" While a small river of blood as dripping from the victims head. Viceralus spells are always as gruesome as can be.
Doom of the Magical Migrane 'Redux 3'
PeCo (Re,Mu,Te)
Base 30 Kill a target
+2 affect metal
Requistes: Free (cosmetic)
Range: Voice +2
Duration: Momentary +0
Target: Individual +0
PeCo (Re,Mu,Te) 50
This spell causes metal spikes to sprout into the head of the target in a very gruesome way, killing instantly the poor victim. The helmet as a result of the deadly spell, is entwined with the head of the victim and will proove very hard to remove post mortem as spikes actually run through the whole crane.
Viceralus of Tytalus invented this spell to make an example of how mundane protection were ineffective against true mages. In his presentation, he removed the helmet of the subject to show how feeble the human skull actually was only to find pieces of it that dropped onto the ground. viceralus spells always have a gruesome effect.
It is not any harder to heat a block of marble then it is to create a blazing fire, or at least my memory of CrIg says that they are the same base thing. A CrIg spell which heats the human body up to 100 C (killing the victem) is no harder than the same spell cast into a stone.
I agree with the second statement in so far as real life is concerned and my feeling is that this is case of the collision between real life experience and magical rules.
It isn't clear at all to me that the rules as written preclude creating two objects which occupy the same space...or what happens when such events occur.
Maybe David Chart could comment? Frankly I think we could go around the mulberry bush from now until doomsday otherwise.
I like Williams second spell by the way...that is a good one for the desired effect. And it fits better with the other spells in Ars...and even the Redux 2 is not bad as it again fits better with the other spells. But on the other hand the original spell (baring the lack of a finess roll) which Williams should also require...is withing the rules so far as I can see.
I was looking over the guidelines on page 78 for muto and rego, and the spell I devised would in fact be Rego. Faulty thinking on my part. Rego can change a thing's shape, but not what it's made of. Muto changes what it's made of.
As for Muto killing, that's easy enough. Turn a stone bridge to mud and it collapses. People on it fall. The example from the book, turning someone on dry land into a fish, would also kill. The difference between direct and indirect can be a fine one, to be sure.
I really don't know why my brain gravitated to the question in the first place, as my maga is an explorer and researcher, not a warrior. That's what my companion is for. He's the smiling blade type, the charming warrior.
If you think it's a lot of bang for the buck, that's a good reason to raise the level (remember "The Central Rule" on p.111). But how much? A good idea is to look at the closest effect among the listed spells: Teeth of the Earth Mother (MuTe35), which is essentially a bigger version of what you propose, applied to a patch of ground rather than to the inside of an helmet. Teeth of the Earth mother gets a +2 magnitude modifier for the "fancy" effect. It would seem that your spell would deserve at least the same modifier - even ignoring the fact that it seems trickier than Teeth of the Earth Mother, since you would be growing the spikes without seeing them, and within a mobile item rather than over fixed ground. This would put the spell at level 15, which seems reasonable to me in terms of "game balance", considering its very restricted applicability.
