Vim Magic Ideas/Questions?

Hi all,

been awhile and tho I'm not playing any Arm5 atm, I have a couple of ideas for everyone to have a poke at, about a Vim specialist....

Firstly, I was thinking that ArM5 doesnt have any "Force" magic as such - batterying your enemy with raw waves of force - maybe telekensis at a push, but still, that doesnt seem quite on the ball. I was thinking that the Creo Vim guidelines could include a chain of guidelines similiar to Creo Ignem for dealing damage to opponents with raw power. I would assume the guidelines would be a magnitude (or maybe even two) behind the Creo Ignme guidelines for damage bonus's. Would that work - do such concepts exist within the ArM5 setting and you would as a GM/player allow such spells?

Secondly, in the Muto Vim guidlines, it says

So my question is, where are these additional guidelines? Having only recently looked into Muto Vim and the meta magic effects, I really like them, so I'm interested in seeing these other guidelines??

Leading on from that, could you put metamagic effects alone into magic items (most likely your talisman i guess) and have them activiate to apply to formulaic spells you cast? Would you still need the Intelligence+Concentration roll of 9+ to use the magic item with a normal spell?

Cheers

Kal

Vim only affects 'magic' or 'power'. It is intangible and shouldn't be able to cause tangible effects, like damage to persons or objects. You use Creo Ignem for that, or Perdo [Form].
The guidelines really only make provisions for CrVi to give a target more Warping Points, effectively provoking a Twillight episode at 2 or more. The rest of the guidelines are about creating false shells of magic, replenishing a demon's might, strengthening an aura, creating a false magical taint and so on. And personally I think the 'force magic' is too much "that other game" for me. Some of the things i love about ArM is doing away with this sillyness.

A Vim specialist really can't directly affect others, only magical effects and supernatural beings.
He could be a fierce demon hunter, with the ability to create temporary ACs to it, ward against it, bind it to an object or dispel it.
He could be an investigator of magical effects, or an expert in dispelling them
He could be a fighter of other magi, responding to their spells by dispelling, deflecting or changing them - perhaps even turning them against the original caster (Mirror of Opposition).

As for the MuVi 'Totally change a spell' guidelines, I agree that the references to Cr and Pe are in fact not bacjed up by any guidelines in the CrVi or PeVi guidelines. If someone wanted to invoke this effect, I'd say perhaps add the Cr or Pe as requisites for either boosting or lowering the target spell magnitude, and add magnitudes to the guideline for added power and the req.

IIRC there is the Mystery of Greater Talisman which allows Mu Vi effects in the talisman to affect spells as they are cast. So otherwise you can't.

  1. i agree with the idea behind ultraviolet's responses.

  2. For +3 magnitude (or more) magnitude of changements :
    -> for +3 magnitude, IMO it's a Mu(Cr)VI spells affecting spells less than half (his base level ). In fact, same level as the MuVi, but with Creo requisite (thus the "+1 magnitude" from MuVi guidelines is abosrbed by the "+1 magnitude for requisite" in the spell).
    -> for +3+x magnitude, IMO, it's a Mu(Cr)Vi spell affecting spell less than half (base level - 2x magnitude). So with a Mu(Cr)Vi 50 (at voice) with a +6 magnitude augmentation you can transform a spell up to level (40 - 3*2 magnitude)/2 = level 5 which must be formulaic (MuVi can't affect spontaneous spell) and boost it by +30, changing it completly (not the current "target" which then must be valid for the level 5 spells), but Technique, Form, Duration, Penetration or Target.

It's one way to do it, and it's my own interpretation, as i love Vim magic but don't want it to be overpowered.

Ok, thanks for the feedback, so no vim damaging spells....fine enough.

Next questions on vim magic....

  1. Could a magus use a spell similar to Shell of Opaque Mysteries to cause all attempts to magically investigate an item or person to fail? And if yes, would it have to be a ritual casting to do so?

  2. Do MuVi spells have to be keyed to the specific forms or are they restricted to increasing [range/target/duration] by 1 magnitude??

  3. finally, are there any adidtional meta magic type guidelines in any other books beyond core?

Cheers

Kal

Ritual if year duration, otherwise if level > 50. Yes, but its the third guideline: level of the In spell must be less than half (the CrVi base level+1 magnitude) so it's really hard! A spell like CrVi 45 (touch, moon) could give false information to intellego spells less than 15 (many, but not all (Sight of the active magic is 40...)

IIRC no.

Its not in AM5 no. I think its a nice idea though, but it should definitely be very weak compared to Ignem, 2 more likely 3 and quite possibly even 4 Magnitudes behind, as Vim is already a very useful form and it would be a very ineffecient way to attack something.
I would totally allow it however.

We have done something similar through adding "Ether" as an additional Form, handling all kinds of energy(or insubstantials) not clearly part of other forms but also overlapping with some(light and heat for example, though at higher magnitude to make the same thing happen).
Its not a perfect solution though, still unknown wether im likely to keep it or not.

No real reason for it to be expressly unable to affect objects directly. It should certainly be very weak in comparison though as it would almost have to be very ineffective to change its "appearance" enough to cause a physical effect.

Or CrAu, CrAq, CrTe, ReCo, ReTe, ReAu, CrIm (hey where DID that bridge go, i know i saw it! aaaaaaah... splat)... and so on. CrIg is nice and plenty of damage but not everyone uses it.

Oh thats just being silly. Why not just accept that the games are different but that both have their good and bad sides? I dont like the "guilt by association" fallacy even when its justified, and in this case its nothing close.

The "raw magic attack" is already in the game indirectly anyway, by way of how you can boost spells by spending Vis.

Allowing a Vim specialist a useful though comparatively weak ability to attack is neither a gamebreaker nor bad i think.

[quote="DIREWOLF75
Oh thats just being silly. Why not just accept that the games are different but that both have their good and bad sides? I dont like the "guilt by association" fallacy even when its justified, and in this case its nothing close.

The "raw magic attack" is already in the game indirectly anyway, by way of how you can boost spells by spending Vis.

Allowing a Vim specialist a useful though comparatively weak ability to attack is neither a gamebreaker nor bad i think.[/quote]
I'm not really dissing 'that other game', I'm just saying to keep them as the two separate games they are. Just because one thing works in the one doesn't mean it could or should in the other. And BTW I'm chronically silly, so...
But IMHO making Vim affect physical things by allowing some way of magically attack just goes against he grain of concept. Learn another Form to zap the magi, or just adapt to what Vim covers.

I like the thoroughness of your guidelines. I can't really see if they are ok or not, but they surely merit testing and further scrutiny. I'll see what I come up with.

Further study of potential Vim effects have lead me to what I consider a very nice enchanted item, and I cant see that it breaks any rules....

ReVi
ReVi28: Maintenance Ring; Lesser Enchanted Device
(Base Effect 10, +1 Touch, +1 Conc)
+5 Item maintains Conc, +3 Frequency 6/day

This ring will maintain another spell of level 20 or less cast by the wearer indefinitely, until the bearer chooses to end it. The ring can only maintain one spell at a time, however.

What do people think - I love the idea, makes useful spells easier to cast (reducing them to conc) and you can turn them off at will without dispels or harnessed magic? Would people agree that even tho the ring has 6 charges per day, it can only maintain 1 spell at a time? Seems a little odd as ReVi effects are not limited in magic items like MuVi are?

Kal

The best attack spell I have seen using vim so far in this board has been one that gives the target 2 Warp Points, forcimng a twilight control test (at least 2 minutes of the target being out of action). Can't remember the details, but as a dangerous spell it looked cool.

Xavi

Pilgrim's Parma, but I think the Muto Vim spell guidelines specifically say that MuVi spells in enchanted items can affect only other effects in the same item, not (for instance) spells cast by the item's bearer. I imagine that the same restriction holds for ReVi spells.

AM can reproduce many, but not all magical effects from any source you care to name.

In some other games, Magic does "stuff" - you name an effect, and the SG makes a ruling on the "Spell Level", and it's in. In Ars, the magic revolves around the 5 Techniques and 10 Forms, and while 98% (or more) of all effects can be achieved, not all fit. "Waves of Force" are the type of effect that is "stuff" - it's not tightly defined except that it is really effective. It's a little like a "Detect Anything Unpleasant" spell, except this is almost a "Push Away Anything Unpleasant". :unamused:

A RegoTerram(Corpus/Animal) might be a close approximation.

I have thought of this item before. There are two unclear points on it.

  • How many spells can be maintained at the same time. RAW would indicate that it can maintain an indefinite number of spells.
  • Which spells can be affected. The guideline you employ specify that it can maintain "Sustain or suppress a spell you have cast whose level less than the level of the vim spell + 2 magnitudes". So, this would mean that the ring can target spells cast by the ring, not the wielder.

About the first point, I have searched for an answer to that question. The errata does not concern itself with this problem, as it rarely occurs. The concentration rules are not helpful, as a magus could potentially maintain concentration on many spells (ease factor 15+3 for each spell after the second).
One compromise would be that the item can maintain concentration once for each "+5 items maintains conc" that have been added. Another would be to use the frequency table, and say that as the effect can be cast 6 times a day, the ring can maintain 6 spells simultaneously.

About the second point, I would argue that you would have to use the higher level guideline, "Sustain or suppress a spell cast by another with level less than half the level of the vim spell + 5 magnitudes". So, with this guideline, you ring would be able to sustain spells of level 35/2=17,5. Make it a lvl 33 item to get the ability to sustain lvl 20 spells.
There is a funny quirk with the rules as stated here. You could in fact take over another concentration spell, if you touch the ring to the spell. You can then end the spell at will, or change it's effect.

The situation is even less clear if the ring is your talisman. In that case, it is less clear who "you" are, as the talisman is considered part of your body. The rules for the Mystery of the Great Talisman specify that MuVi effects in the talisman can affect spells cast by the wielder, which indicate that MuVi effects in normal talismans cannot.

I think Blekinge has some good points. I have a little to add:

Normal Hermetic Magic requires special things added to it (either a virtue or a spell mastery option taught by someone with that virtue) to be able to hand off control of a spell. See the Mercere chapter of HoH:TL for details. Without either of these it shouldn't be possible, otherwise what's the point of them?

Chris

Not really - the guideline he's refering to 'steals' your spell (it's in Societates btw, I had to look it up recently), which again makes me wonder if it needs to penetrate?