Virtues at Character Creation

This may have been dealt with already, and if so, I apologize for being redundant.

It struck me that there are a few Virtues that should have a fairly massive effect on character creation. Looking at the character I'm coming up with using the Extremely Complex Character Creation method, he's turning out quite a bit differently from the "standard" method.

Is there a way to integrate the following virtues into standard character creation without making things too complex? The virtues are (and I may have missed a few):

Secondary Insight
Elemental Magic

In essence, there are virtues that give you experience in multiple areas when you study a specific thing. Is there a way to represent that that's not TOO broken?

Well I think the official line would be that the only way that these could be handeled realistically is through the extremely complex character generation method.

If I had to come up with a rule of thumb to apply to the advanced character generation method my first guess would be to assume that all experience points come in groups of seven. (exposure is of course lower and reading/training is normally higher)

If an Elementalist split his xp evenly among the four Forms, and you assume 8 xp a season, then each Form would get 8+3 xp. So add 37.5% more xp, or round to 40% or 33%. This isn't quite as good as having an Affinity in each Form, so it balances out... actually, 37.5% balances out quite well. Compare: 100 xp into four Forms, 400 xp, Affinities in three of them, 50 extra xp each, 150 extra xp total. 400*.375=150 xp, so give 37.5 xp to each of the four Forms. (Numbers chosen for illustration, not relevance to an apprentice)

If the Elementalist specializes in one of the Forms, then less benefit. In four seasons of study they might get 32 xp in one Form, and 3 xp in each of the other three. About a 10% benefit to the other three Forms.

Secondary Insight looks more complicated and I haven't tried to work it out. There's also Book Learner and Apt Student, to complicate things even more. Since there are a bunch of virtues which give 50 xp in one thing or another, and one which gives 60 xp and 30 spell points, but these virtues give ongoing benefit, you might just give 25 or 30 xp, even if realistically that seems low.

Apprentice gets 240 xp. Say half comes from reading, half from teaching. 120 each. 120/8 = 15 seasons. 15*3=45 xp. The good student virtue actually gives 5 xp from teaching, I think, but you might handwave that more time is spent in study.

Of course, you might then combine these with Skilled Parens...

Assuming a 0 Com (average master):
base teaching Quality is 3+6 (bonus for one on one). Plus Teaching, which should quickly rise to 1, then 2, just from exposure. After a master's first apprentice it should be 3, from 15 seasons of teaching (15*2 = 30xp). So teaching seasons are likely to be Quality 10-13, even 14 for an older master.

High level summae will be Comm+6, probably 7-14 (including Good Teacher for some authors). More books would be written at 7-8 (so more likely to populate all 15 Arts) but the better ones might be copied more. Or guarded jealously, maybe. Low level summae can be double that, 14-28. Or using the covenants caps, 7-11 and 14-22.

Tractati worth copying or giving to an apprentice will also be 7-14 (or 7-11).

A standard apprentice gets an average of 16 xp/year, plus the 120 spell points. The annual teaching is likely to be at least 11-12 of the xp -- oh, except some teaching seasons might be teaching spells, not skills. Then there's study, and exposure.

When I first looked at these two virtues ( Elemental Magic and Secondary Insight ), I thought, wow do these virtues really go well beyond the average. Match an affinity or two in the mix and you are really powering up the xp.

I then took a couple more reads of the virtues to look at them more carefully to see what was being worded.

Elemental Magic

"Whenever you successfully study one of these arts, you gain an additional point in each of the other three."

From the wording, I interpret that if you study a book on Igneum and gain 6 xp for Igneum then you also gain 1 xp in Terrum, Aquam, and Auram ( not 6 xp in each which some players may try to convince you but point out that article "an" is singular as is "point". )

Secondary Insight

This is even more clear in specifying that each period of study awards a "single" experience point in either 4 different forms or 2 different techniques.

Note: these are both Major Virtues and each season of study is awarding a bonus of 3 xp for elemental or 2-4 xp for secondary insight.

I would be more pointing out that the Minor Virtue Apt Student awards a bonus 5 xp per season if you have a teacher ( no restriction of art or ability but it does require having that teacher which might be harder to come by ).

Book Learner is a Minor Virtue and each season of study is awarding a bonus of 3 xp if studying from a book. The same basic advantage is from Free Study and is a minor Virtue.

The xp gain is thus not unbalanced compared to the minor virtues that can give a similar bonus.

The question then is why are Elemental Study and Secondary Insight Major Virtues if Minor Virtues can give the same gain in xp?

The answer is that Elemental Study and Secondary Insight apply if you study from a Teacher, Book, or Raw Vis. Their application to all three circumstances equals the purchasing of the three minor virtues of Book Learner, Free Study, and Apt Student.

The selecting of the virtue Elemental also gives a bonus on flexability with requisites which makes it useful if a magi wants to do things like have flaming guysers of water or changing raindrops to pellets of gold.

Secondary Insight gives the advantage of flexability where the additional xp are awarded which means that you can focus on one or two main arts and still reach the minimum xp to qualify to have an apprentice in arts that you might not have study material to work from.

While that's all true, Phili, that wasn't the issue here. I was wondering if anyone had any idea as to how they influence character creation. Of course, that raises the even more interesting question. At which point do characters gain their Virtues?

Depends whether you decide that specific Virtues are learned or inborn. :slight_smile:

My apologies on missing what you were directly seeking an answer.

I was noting in the Hermetic Economy thread that one of the questions that you need to decide for yourself is what does 30 xp for a year really represent? The number does not evenly divide by 4 so that means you are looking at a value of 7 to 8 if you consider it represents that the magi are all study. If you consider that the value includes that magi might lose one season in four to various events then that would give you a base of 10 xp per season.

An apprenticeship is 240xp + 120 lvls of spells. Based upon the rules the 120 lvls of spells is equivelent to 120 xp ( after apprenticeship ) which gives a total of 360 xp for 15 years. This works out to 24 xp per year. You could either rate this at an average of 8 xp per season for 3 seasons or 2 seasons at 10 xp per season and 2 seasons of exposure xp at 2 xp per season.

I might suggest choosing the 10 xp per season model but 8 xp per season would be just as good.

If you decide what base amount you would like to use then divide the amount of xp invested in the art to determine the extra bonus.

For example a magus learned igneum to level 10 ( 55 xp cost ) and had the virtue of Elemental Magic. Then 55 xp / 10 ( or 8, your choice ) = 5.5 seasons or 6 xp applied to Auram, Aquam, and Terram Arts.

If you said an apprentice had an advantage like book learner or study bonus and that it could be applied for the full period of time then just increase the base value by that amount to determine how long it would have taken and apply the differance as a bonus in xp to another source.

For example a magus is said to have access to a book that is capable of teaching up to level 10 in the art they are interested in studying ( Storyteller rulling on this ) and they are a book learner. Time to study would then be 55xp / ( 10+3 ) = 4.2 seasons or roughly a savings of one season ( 5.5 - 4.2 = 1.3 though you can rule on how to handle rounding ). That would make 10 to 13 xp available by the magus for other study.

Using this suggestion it allows you to reasonably determine the advantage that a relavent virtue might have without going into too much detail.

I hope that was more of what you wanted Eldragil.

The virtue Cautious with Ability says "This virtue may apply to any ability, even one that you cannont learn at character creation."

Several other virtues like Student of Realm list that they allow learning of an ability that normally could not be learned at character creation.

These types of phrases would suggest that virutes are things that you are born with.

Their application though requires the correct enviroment ( like apprenticeship with opening of arts for virtues affecting arts ) to be realized.

I don't really accept the premise. While some virtues may be very useful for a particular apprentice, others would be useful for others. May favortire example is a maga with Great Presence using her charm to obtain lots of magical secrets and learning. I am satisfied with the core ruling that all things being equal nothing affects character creation unless it says so in the virtue.

If your making a new character and not playing it through the apprentice stage, I'd say there is no reason to deviate from the points listed in the book. You are an apprentice. All your required to receive is 1 season of teaching.
If your parens wants to use you to clean outhouses the rest of the time then thats what you do. (45 outhouse exposure points over 3seasons/15years leaves 195 points from teaching, or 13xp/year). This also leans towards these virtue being learned, not inborn. So you wouldn't be applying bonuses over the 15yrs

If your talking about training an apprentice you take, then you can easily advance them season by season as the game progresses, or you can get metacreator and whip through 15 years of a new character in a few minutes.