Vis in the lab before magic theory was invented

I searched for this, found a lot, but nothing giving me the answer:

How was vis used in the lab before magic theory, since you can't use more then 2 vis per MT, you can't use any if you have no magic theory.

I am preparing a saga in the Vendel era, with low powered magic, they should however be able to do something in a lab, and since Bonisagus has not come by yet, how can they?

I was thinking of making a new skill that just gives you this ability (two pawns per point, maybe I'll limit it to one), but can be learned by anybody with magical aptitude (I'm removing the Gift as such, replacing it with a few specialties, such as an alchemist, crafter of magical weapons, shapeshifter, such things).

Has anyone else encountered this in their saga's? How did you deal with it?

Based on Hedge Magic, the Ability "Magic Theory" ought more properly to be named "Hermetic Magic Theory." Every magical tradition has their own "Magic Theory" ability (although in some cases it's another Ability that stands in for Magic Theory... such as Speak Pictish or Artes Liberales).

I'd say yes and no about vis in a "laboratory."

Yes, vis is used with non-hermetic magic. Yes, there is evidence of vis used in enchantment in pre-hermetic magic (notably by the Columbae, Rustic and Verditius traditions).

However, a Hermetic Laboratory is precisely that: A hermetic form of using magic.

Prior to Bonisagus, the "Laboratory" would likely be a far, far cruder thing. Some laboratory functions, like the extraction of vis, would be impossible for most traditions.

Instead, the laboratory should be substituted with whatever work-space best suits the magic-user in question. The limit of vis should be determined by a primary magic ability or a secondary ability related to the magic. In the abcense of such an Ability (Craft or Profession), (Cult) Lore or (Realm) Lore could be appropriate. I also like the above idea of tradition-specific Magic Theories.

For example, using Tradition - Lab Equivalent - Vis Limit Ability:

Craft Magic - Workshop - Craft Ability
Cult of Vulcan - Workshop - Craft Ability
Merinita's Cult of Diana - Forest Grove - Nature Lore
Goetic Shapeshifters - Temple/Ritual site - Shapeshifter ability
Necromancers - Temple - (Cult) Lore
Columbae - Any settled space - Magic Lore
Criamon's Mystic tradition - Enigmatic labyrinth - Enigmatic Wisdom
Mercurians - Mercurian Temple - Philosophia + Mercurian Cult Lore
Sirenes - musical performance space - Music
Pharmacopeans - Apothecarial workspace - Profession: Apothecary

Does that make sense?

Keep in mind, too, that Supernatural Abilites attached to each of the Ex-Miscellania traditions represent a much-depleted version of their former powers; those parts of their tradition which were not subsumed into Hermetic Magic.

Actually, this is implied in the core book.

What Bonisagus did was form a unified theory that could explain (most) all the others, a common language for teaching, sharing, and comparing. That's the strength of The Order over smaller, proprietary traditions.

Bob the Hedge Wizard has his own theory - Bob's Magic Theory - and he can (probably) use vis just fine. If he became a Hermetic Wizard and switched to Bonisagus' Magic Theory, that limit might drop, but his overall potential would broaden considerably.

I like this, I'll add both the ability to use Vis in a lengthy amount of time, and add a skill for each magical ability, both giving one vis per season, cumilative. The reason I want the second skill, is to allow non-magic users to use Vis as well.

Hum... You should know that this'll make hedge wizards able to use a lot more vis than hermetics.
You might want to select either the greater, or the lower of the two.

Quite possibly, although even if it is impossible to extract from the aura every hedge tradition (past and present) that has a use for vis must have some way of finding or at least identifying vis. Although many traditions could have had very inefficient means, or relied on knowing about one or two specific sources but not how to find it more generally.

Certainly. Almost all traditions would have needed access to vis in one way or another (though not all, necessarily). Most, however, would have relied on local sources of one kind or another, which would likely influence or determine the nature of their practice.

Some, such as Merinita's Nature Magic, had special ways of avoiding the need for vis in many circumstances (wilding, for example), and had easy means of finding raw vis.

Many would use Magic Lore or Area Lore to find vis.

I don't see how it would make hedge wizards able to use more vis than hermetics : those hedge theory are going at the same rate as hermetic magic theory and more than often, there is no books, so they would probably be less strong...

Magic theory + hedge theory.

When does that happen?

What Lab Total uses the sum of two different Magic Theories?

It happens here.

It also happen when you consider "hedge magic theory" to be something like, for example, heartbeast when designing sensory spells.

OK, sure if you have a house rule that combines magic theories that might be a problem. But I don't think that there are any (or at least many) circumstances in RAW where it might happen.

You are right, but my whole answer was dedicated to show Lady merlina what was meant by the person she quoted. Then you posted saying that it doesn't happen, and I answered that it happens in the context of the discussion. And, since the whole thread is "house rule territory" one would expect this thread to contain house rules ideas :wink:.

I did not calculate that right, so it is back out again, I wanted to make it not as strong, by requiring a second ability, due to progression it became stronger. I'll just remove the whole vis use ability, instead coupling vis use with the supernatural abilities, and winging a bit here and there (If you find some ore that has Vis in it and you use it, something happens, that sort of thing).