Vitkir Post Apprenticeship

Just a quick question: HMRE p. 120 states that "Vitkir characters are designed like magi, with only a few exceptions."
It then goes on to describe an apprenticeship that (rules-/XP.wise) is extremely similar to that of your typical hermetic magus (compare ArM5, p. 32 Magus Only-Apprenticeship).
But what about afterwards? Do Vitkir go back to the 'Later Life' rules (ArM5, p.31, 15 XPs/year) or do they use the 'After Apprenticeship' rule (ArM5, p. 32, 30 XPs/year).

I would assume the later, given that they (generally) wouldn't have a support structure like a Covenant in place, but it doesn't actually say.
Does anyone know what the author intended?

EDIT: Spelling

I don't know what the author intended so I don't have a real answer. I'm going to give you an answer anyway. I'll offer my apologies in advance for diverting the conversation.

To me the difference between "later life" and "after apprenticeship" in the setting is that the magi don't have to work for a living. They get to devote themselves to their magic full time. If the character does that they should use the after apprenticeship method. If the character has responsibilities aside from learning magic they should use later life.

From a story perspective if you want the Vitkir to be in the same league as the magi you at least let them have as many xp if not more to compensate for their less favorable mechanics.


That's really my thought as well, and what I tried to argue above, with the reference to the (lack of) support structure - they have to work, make ends meet.

Good point.

AFAIK, all non-Hermetic traditions require the magus be able to support himself. Samir, learned magicians, all of them have day jobs. Viktir shouldn't be any different.

We are agreed on that, that is not the issue.
Only the XP progression is.

Though it does appear my first thought is supported by most of the answers. Excellent.

XP progression, post gauntlet, or later life, is determined by the number of free seasons one has...

No-one was contesting that either. Did you read my original post?

I did. I was less then clear in my initial response, which generated your response, and my response to that. I wasn't really responding directly to you, but the point you raised left to be used in posterity by someone else who might instead search for an answer, instead of asking.

Fair enough. Then your reply makes sense.
Thank you.

I would like to nail this down, as on my blog I have published a few starting Vitkir but don't want to age them without having a solid idea as to what rules they should follow.

As examples of non-Hermetic magi who don't get 15xp/year, the Order of Suleiman work in their schools and keep up jobs of doctors and astrologers, so typically lose one season a year and get 25xp/year on average, as they have access to teaching and books.

The Augustan Brotherhood(Virgilians) only need to spend one season per year as court wizards (if I remember rightly), and can study divination from the Aeneid, but their study of their Arts is not obvious and I've tried to get a straight answer from CJ Romer about how it's supposed to work - it doesn't usually matter because they're usually used as NPCs so a certain amount of "he had a really good master" or "he got lucky experimenting with vis" allows a modest degree of hand-waving if you mess up by a few xp.

For Vitkir, I like to think of how they'd earn their living - some may make a living from their day jobs, and so would lose 2 seasons a year but not arouse any suspicion. Some would make a living from selling magic, and carving a few runes for someone can give them a nice long-term enchantment until the runes wear off, so they can earn a good living from a few days work per season. As an example, consider one who has mastered runes of travel - they can offer to carve runes into a ship or wagon to speed its travel and in a few minutes of etching, they've just increased a merchant's profitability greatly and can charge a good fee for this.
The runes to "summon food and drink" aren't hard - can one with these just steal food as needed, and not worry about making a living? Likewise, runes to summon wealth making magical theft a lot easier may be able to support themselves with ease, but had best move operations on a regular basis to avoid getting caught.
As a combined example, what about a Vitkir with Hagalaz working aboard a ship? By carving runes to reduce stormy weather, he can save the ship and is worth the pay of a master sailor. Would he also be expected to row/ haul ropes/ do other day-to-day work of a sailor, or is he able to contemplate runes or study Aquam vis as he stares out across the ocean for most days of the journey?

All of these are atmospheric and possible. There are suggestions in Rival Magic for a hreppar of Norse Magi (vitkir, folk witches, trollsynir, learned magicians and the rest) who regulate how much you can earn from working for others, settle disputes over vis, punish magicians who do harm, ward off evil trolls and fairies, and keep an eye out for giant-worshipping Muspelli trying to destroy the world. There is room for a little bit of support or at least regulated court wizard jobs from such a setting.

There's a potential XP bonus from a rune under certain circumstances, isn't there?

(the runemaster) blesses this work, Jera base effect - gives +magnitude of this spell bonus to anything you do for an entire year. This includes study totals if you spend the entire year studying the same rune.

Now, if you are working for more than a few days each season you can't really count as spending the "entire year" studying, so any significant work renders this impossible.

In turn, this raises the question - what do you take for the limit - 7 days/season like Hermetic labwork, or more than one-third of a season, the level at which study totals get penalised?

for an example, has a goblin-blooded vitkir who can steal with ease and provide his own food & drink. He also has the above Jera script at level 10, so if he ever gets an epic amount of loot he'll spend a year carousing under the influence of that rune and get 4 seasons practice and 2 bonus xp, and probably a fat reputation.

The easy way to use runes to increase your XP gain is to increase a component of your job total - that is, the total you use to generate Labor Points (C&G 38). (Fehu, of course, but Othila may also make sense.) If your wealth comes from land instead of skill, then discuss whether regular Jera-ing of your fields counts as being Wealthy.

I would personally think that most Gifted (and many unGifted) hedgies should be either Wealthy or "skill-Wealthy" (36 Labor Points a season) with a little experience under their belts, though the Gift may complicate said acquisition of wealth. The Court Wizard social status also counts, though it requires working for a lord.

I hope I'm wrong, but I decided I had to ditch those, because these runes add to rolls, not totals.
And unless I'm much mistaken (noble's parma), there's no dice involved in accumulating Labour Points.

There aren't, but that gets into my own sanity check on the subject. Personally, saying "rolls only, not totals" makes no sense to me, especially when the Fehu guideline gives you a bonus to rolls when, for example, working to generate wealth. If Fehu is so written that you can't use it to make more money through your business, then it's badly written.