VOICES FROM HOLLOW SPACES ReMe 25
R: Voice, D: Ring, T: Ind
This spell binds ghosts to objects or places...
B5: Control a disembodied spirit
THE WICKED JAR MuVi Gen
R: Voice, D: Sun, T: Ind
This spell changes a demon with Might no greater than...
B Gen +2: Bind a demon with Might equal to...
Core question is: Should VFHS be a Muto effect? If not, should the term used in the description be changed from "Bind" to someting like "Compel"?
What is the core difference between the two? When you compel a spirit it still fights you but a bound one relents?
Also, how does a Ring/Ind spell work again? I understood it had to target a Circle.
Voices from Hollow Spaces (HoH:TL p.140 - but the base is level 5, not 15, as per the errata) is
of questionable mechanical validity, like many of the other spells in the Tremere chapter of HoH:TL. For example, it's not obvious that a ghost can on its own reside "inside" a mirror, and the Base effect cannot compel it to do what it otherwise could not.
The D:Ring duration is problematic too, even though in principle T:Ind can certainly work with D:Ring. With T:Ind: a magus casts a spell on an Individual - in this case a ghost - and by D:Ring the spell lasts until that Individual leaves a Circle drawn at the time of casting or said Circle is broken (one could use the same circle to cast a T:Circle spell instead of a T:Ind one, but one need not do so). Obviously, to have any effect, the Circle must be drawn around the Individual at the time of casting. Which means that to cast Voices from Hollow Spaces a magus probably needs to first compel or trick the ghost in place by some other means, then cast Voices from Hollow Spaces to pin it there - which is not obvious at all from the description of the spell!
The Wicked Jar (RoP:I p.122) "transforms" a demon so it becomes bound within an object and part of it, in a way "similar to the Goetic Art of Binding", so that it can only be released by breaking the object (or ending the spell). This works even if said demon on its own had no ability to enter the object, and is much sounder mechanically in my view.
If using a Base 5 Re(Form) effect is valid to bind disembodied spirits, why would anyone bother using the MuVi Gen +2 Guideline to do the same?
The Rego guideline will work irrespective of the might (Just need to penetrate). There are more Rego "Masters" out there vs Muto as Rego is so much more useful (Wards, Control, Craft creation, Transportation, Animation, etc.) at lower levels than Muto.
I'd like binding to be a Muto effect but RAW seems to support it being mostly done in Rego except by a few fringe Muto specialists.
The point is that it's not clear what you mean by "binding"; the two effects are very different.
The Base 5 Re(Form) effect can simply compel a spirit to do something it could do; including (typically) to stay where it is.
The MuVi effect instead merges the demon with an object, even if the demon could not do so on its own. You had a demon and a dagger? Now you have a demonically-possessed dagger. You can carry it around, juggle it, whatever. The demon is part of the dagger now, and can only be released by breaking the dagger (or the spell).
This is part of why I'm confused. Both effects use the word "Binding".
I get what you mean that they are different to a point. There might be a few cases where the Rego effect would not be adequate while the Muto one would. I'd like to think that the entity is "happier" with the Muto effect as it changes it an is now, as you say a dagger instead of being trapped in a dagger with Rego. Not sure RAW supports this vision...
Clearly it can, because clearly it does. 8) I'm not sure why you'd think a ghost could not exist bound to a mirror on a fundamental level. Could you clear that up?
Like many spells effects, you can get to the effect you want in multiple ways. One way of binding is Rego which makes the spirit unable to disobey your instructions. As I understand it The Wicked Jar is a Hermetic attempt at something like Infernal Binding, and it works by changing the demon so that it is incapable of leaving the jar because it is now part of the jar.
As to why there are two ways of doing a thing, you'll find similar divisions in elementals. Its possible to hold an elemental in place with Rego (Element) or Rego Vim and the (Element) version is far easier. Why would you use Vim at all? The same spell works on all forms. Similarly you could have a Wicked Jar-like spell that works on all magical spirits, or all faeries.
I'm not sure about happier, but certainly more biddable. Fixing a ghost into s skull with Rego doesn't make it like you: that would be a Muto effect.
I am not sure what you mean with "on a fundamental level".
I am just saying that I do not think that every ghost, or even the "average" one, can enter a mirror on its own. Maybe you had something different in mind, but that's how I read the spell description, in the light of many standard fantasy tropes where you get ghosts bound to mirrors in the sense that you look into the mirror and see the ghost. I am willing to bet that 3 readers out of 4 who are not thinking about the specific Ars Magica mechanics would read it that way.
Of course, you might instead have intended: I place a large mirror (why a mirror?) down like a table or rug, I somehow (how?) get a ghost to stand there while I draw a magic Circle on the mirror around said ghost as I cast Voices from Hollow Spaces, and then bam, the ghost is compelled to stay within the Circle drawn on top of the large, flat-lying mirror. But that's absolutely not what the spell seems to do from the description, even though it is what it does from the mechanical summary (base guideline + RDT).
On top of what Ezzelino replied, I'd like the verbatim of VfHS to be "Compel" or "Forced" instead of Bound/Binding. Make it clear that the effect only works while the Spirit fears leaving the object... like the other effects of ReMe where you intimidate the spirit to tell you xyz.