Yes that is in the muto sidebar in my printing of the book (not the errata for anyone who went looking there) which means that all the example spells should only work on momentary spells and I'm okay with that. Communion is weird though and may not fall under that rule. It's a legacy spell and has a weird group target. It doesn't line up with normal vim rules as each casting of the spell doesn't need to match the other spell's level. Instead all Communions are combined and have to meet double the spell's level.
Furthermore you'd really hose Mercurian casters with such a strict interpretation of the rules. "I'm sorry you only gain a normal version of Wizards Communion when you learn a higher ritual. So it won't actually help you cast the Year duration ritual spell you learned it with."
I say keep wizards communion formulaic and momentary otherwise your talking way to much extra math.
If you need a rubber magic explanation as to why how about this. What communion does to the target spell is make it temporarily lower in magnitude for the purposes of casting only. All the other effects targets and parameters stay the same, so once it's cast it doesn't matter that the effect has worn of. It's like Magicaly making a boulder lighter so it's easier to throw, once air born it doesn't mater how it got there. This is why their is still only one actual caster for the purposes of the rolls. Even for a ritual it's reasonable to only need a momentary spell. You just cast it at the ritual's climax when the casting is completed because thats the point of the most effort. (Also it's when the dice are rolled, vis is consumed, fatigue is spent, botches are resolved and the spell is generally paid for in and out of character.)
Other magi have to participate in the ritual both as a cosmetic effect and so the can get the timing down with out a finesse roll or fast casting. The group target, weird level guidelines and the shared warping risk is because each Communion is set up to tie itself, the target spell and all the other Communions together to accomplish a fairly impressive feat.
BTW: I to agree aegis plus penetration makes for a few to many complications.
And Tugdual, I totally agree that aegis with penetration is a nonsense. I just tried to describe how it was RAW and not a house rule.
Edit: and by the way, i find this errata part totally awful! But that's just my opinion. It is RAW... and I won't hesitate to house rule it, if I should have the need. I could justify it simply by saying: Muto Vim is like casting a spell : a momentary exercise (less than 6 seconds for a formulaic or spontaneous spell) which will possibly have lasting effects.
It should be noted that Wizards' Communion does not need to last very long for Aegis of the Hearth. The reason for this is that Wizards' Communion alters the casting of the spell, not the effects of the spell itself. So you don't need a year-long Wizards' Communion. It could be argued whether you need a Day duration one or just need to cast a normal one ceremonially.
Callen, but isn't the range muto vim only affecting "the casting"? And the wizard's opposition also?
MuVi is about altering the casting (that's what I previously said as "why i would disregard such rule if I need") but this errata don't make things in that way, and consider the change to be "durable".
And the errate is quite clear in that it speaks about the spells below, and those are all the MuVi spells. There is not exception to this errata I dislike a lot.
I should say also: if the mutovim need a duration, it also mean that it has to have penetration to allow a penetrating spell affected by wizard's fork, or for the exemple mirror's of opposition to really work. Which also totally kill the MuVi spells since they are already so hard to be useful for any one.
Yeah, since the only effect of WC is to increase the penetration, Momentary is enough.
I am a little put off (drats that non-pdf ArM5), I cannot find anywhere how to adjust General spells for R/D/T. As it stands, an argument could be made that since a lvl20 Sight/Sun and a lvl20 Touch/Mom are both lvl20, they have the same power.
"... add the level at which they know it ..." (and not base level or anything)
"If you want to Duplicate an existing spell use the statistics given for it in the spells chapter..." the statistics for general spells include the ability to vary the level of effect but not the R/D/T. So by those rules a WC Level 15 is actually a duplicate of a level 50 WC.
If you alter the R/D/T those rules classify the new spell as a Variant. To do that those rules point you to the guidelines on page 114 "Changing Ranges, Durations, and Targets." This will have an effect on what ever formula are provided in the spell description.
If you want to create your own Original General spell then by those rules you would refer to the general guidelines in the Spells chapter. This gives you a list of what sorts of effects correspond to each spell level. So they should give you an idea of what sorts of spells correspond to the general level. Once you hashed out the spell level your using you adjust for R/D/T as per 114 and figure out what your final formula will look like.
Thanks but I have the second printing so I found the relevant explanation in my book. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear before I always look in the errata for that version so I couldn't find what you where referring to at first.
Not at all because as I see in the text it says that like any muto spell muto vim spells only change their targets for as long as the spell is in effect. So normally you would need to use a spell that lasts as long as the target spell. Otherwise the target spell presumably reverts to its original state as soon as the MuVi spell expires.
Normally however isn't the same thing as always. Some times you only need to change something for a short time to get the effect you need. For instance if you alter a spell to make it easier to cast at the moment of casting it doesn't mater if the spell changes back to it's original form, you only get to cast each spell once. Heck it's probably better that it reverts to it's original form
So WC works fine as is for formulaic spells of any duration. You could argue rituals need a different version done at Concentration or Sun or maybe even Ring (Hmm Circle/Ring WC that could be neat) but that really steps outside of any direct information provided by RAW. As it really depends on how you think ritual magic works and weather you think there is a climatic casting point that a momentary spell can target. I happen to think there is for a number of reasons. But thats a different argument.
IMS wards do not penetrate. The reasoning is easy: bookkeeping. I do not want to keep track of everty damn single ward cast IMS, so wards do not need to penetrate. A ward 30 ward keeps stuff with might 30 or less away. Easy. Much easier to apply. Screw consistency (as if there was any in ArM, or it is even desirable) for ease of use.
Here's the easy way to do it, which should have been done all along. Substitute "guideline" for "level" in the General guidelines. Then when you list the base, all you have to do to figure out what the spell can handle is add or subtract or divide or multiply from the base. The confusing part is writing it in terms of the final spell level in the end, because now you have something that isn't obvious to everyone, and that's what was done with so many spells. But if you make that change I suggested everything should work out nicely for you.
Exactly. If I do a Sight Mom Group PeVi20, its level is 20 but its Guideline level is 4. It should reduce the targets Might Score by 10, although a strict reading would put it at 30.
Anyway, IMO there's no variation of WC as it is used, as is, for Fenicil's rituals even if they are fantastically slow.
@The fixer: not really. I tend to associate wards to the caster of said wards. If one of my players has a Ward vs Faeries of the Woods at level 25, all his wards will be level 25. So I only have to remember that he did cast the ward in the barn. Handwave approach, you know. it tends to be easier to remember. Besides, having a level 27 ward or a level 41 ward sounds stupid to us given the structure of hermetic magic working in multiples of 5 past the 5-level point.
Before you argue this, no, our characters do not tend to have the same ward at several levels.
But if you handwave, how's this, at least for NPCs (and I suppose it could work for your PCs too): If someone learns a lvl 25 ward, it's because he wants to be able to stop lvl 25 critters, so he makes sure to have at least Pen 25 with it. So you just record the lvl 25.
IMO, in order to be RAW while handwaving and rounding (and I agree with you on this), you just have to assume your NPCs to have wards of lvl equal to (casting total)/2, rounded up to the nearest 5 (Penetration and a dice roll will help for those not quite there). And I guess you could do the same thing for your PCs.
So if your guy has Re 10, He 7, Sta 2, he has a Ward of (10+7+2 = 19)/2 rounded up = lvl 10
If you assume all his wards to be the same level, just consider the lower one, and that's it. That's no more "broken" than assuming all his wards are lvl 25 when he has a CT of 12 in ReHe.
Just the fact that he was talking about Wards, not the Aegis (in which case, you'd be right).
We have been doing the same. But after reading here I have started to wonder if maybe our wards aren't too powerful, its a lot easier to seal a creature out or in than it is to affect it with other spells for us atm. But I do not like the idea of the book-keeping involved if each ward has its own penetration score.
Stronger wards might not necessarily be bad though, story wise I think it's more interesting if a creature is too strong to take down but quite possible to trick and trap in order to contain the situation (send in the grogs to keep it occupied while the magi do their work. Sacrificing minions: is there any problem it CAN'T solve?)
That's actually the main reason why I'd like wards that didn't need to pentrate:
The whole story set of the "Creature too mighty to kill, so it was sealed away, hopefully forever. Over the centuries forgotten, until the intrepid heroes.." etc
Well, the problem with that isn't that Wards need to penetrate.
It's easier to ward against a might 10 giant than it is to kill it with a BoaF, after all.
The problem is this:
The ward level rises with the creature might
Might-stripping is more efficient than warding. This is not a problem for weak creatures, but this is for high-level ones.
So, if wards had a fixed level (say, lvl 10, or this may vary by realm), this might solve this somewhat.
OTOH, I see this as an advantage for the Aegis, since it ensures that most aegis aren't impregnable fortresses, and that magi need to use Wizard's Communion to cast an efficient aegis, which I find way more mythic than a magus with Re 5 Vi 5 using a tablet to cast a lvl 40 aegis.
wards only work in "columbae style": If they are not circular, they do not work. Fixed level 15 (for example). if crossed by ANYthing, not only the thing they ward against, they fail.
Aegis protects against anything up to its level. It can be crossed with no problems by non supernatural entities.
Apparently, given a casting tablet (which is easily traded for if need be), one of my sodales can expend 3 fatigue levels and successfully cast a lvl 40 aegis. With Re 5, Vi 4, Artes Liberales 1 and Philosophiae 4.
Without penetration, this stops easily your average faerie lord. Does this seems right and mythic to you?
I might be misremembering the rules for casting tablets and rituals, but... how can you cast that?
Does your mind have a soak score? :mrgreen: IMS we have "solved" this problem by bringing back the good ol "natural resistance" rolls to resist non soakable damage/effects. We also give a bonus to soak (+3 per base point) for non circle wards. If it is not soakable effect the ward gives a +1 to the resistance roll for each point of Base magnitude.
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