Warping: who gets it, and how much

Games Discussion Ars Magica
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A maga changes a man into a hog using the Curse of Circe (MuCo(An) 30). The man certainly gets a warping point for being affected by a Powerful Mystical effect.

The maga now casts a Ball of Abysmal Fire (CrIg 30) at the hog to turn it to roasted pork. Does the hog get a warping point, assuming it survives?

Suppose it does. The maga now casts a second Ball of Abysmal fire at the hog, to turn it into well-done roasted pork. Does the hog get a second warping point assuming it survives? I mean, it's a second instance, of one mystical effect.

Suppose the hog just can survive arbitrary punishment. The maga now multicasts the same spell, hitting the poor hog with three more projectiles. Does the hog get three more warping points?

Suppose it does. What if the man had Lesser Immunity to Shapechanging and Greater Immunity to Fire to begin with? Would he still get Warped?

Suppose now the maga casts Cloak of Black Feathers (MuCo(An)30), and pecks at the hog. Does it get one more warping point? Does it get one for every peck?

I know what the answer is at my gaming table. One gets warped only by magic directly affecting him (so, not by the Balls of Abysmal Fire, nor by Curse of Circe if Immune to shapechaning). Also, no matter how many times he gets changed into a hog and back within a short span of time, he only gets one warping point, as it's one mystical effect to which he's repeatedly subjected (of course, if the magic starts to affect him for a long period of time, he'll gain a warping point/season). But it seems that even among very experienced players there are widely different views of what the rules supposedly say. Maybe it's time for clarification?

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IMHO this is the only one which causes warping. Warping isn't about Target or target. It is about being affected by the magic, not just being in contact with something magical (the magical fire in this instance).

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I'd say he does get warping points from each BoAF cast at it.
The multicast spell still only counts as one effect though, so only one warping point from that rather than three.

It is a very good question of what would happen if he had the immunities you mention. On the one hand, he is still affected by magic, on the other hand the magic has no effect on him.

The shapechanged maga pecking should not cause warping, since there is no magic actually affecting the poor man-hog.
Here I get a bit uncertain though, on how to distinguish this case from a magically propelled rock hitting the hog, which I believe should cause warping on the target (assuming a high enough level spell is involved)

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The problem is that the hog was affected by the magical effect when he received the BoAF. In my mind: could you have resisted it, had you MR? If yes, then you were affected. Which is not the same thing as saying that you suffered warping.

To me it's pretty much "one needs to be a Target get warped" (but there are caveats when determining if a particular target under the Target gets warped). This is even one of the key advantages (canon even) of Hermes/Mercere Portals over Form Transportation guidelines.

Of the examples given, I'd say only Curse of Circe warps. A multicast version of Curse of Circe would also warp only once (since the source of the effect is the same spell, which happened to be multicast).

For other examples, as far as I understand Boundary rituals such as the Aegis (which is a bit of a corner case because it comes from a breakthrough) or The Shrouded Glen do not cause warping, because the target is the space within the boundary. Or rather, it would warp the area itself instead of the people and objects living inside the area. Mists of Change on the other hand targets people within the boundary, and would warp the people affected.

Similarly, an InIm spell to look inside a room from afar might warp the room, but it won't warp people inside the room.

As for immunities, I understand that since the target was not actually affected by the spell (only targeted) he does not suffer from warping.

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The Aegis is an explicit special case that does not cause warping, as is the Parma Magica that it is based on. One can't infer anything about other spells with T:Boundary from that.

Anyone getting diverted by The Shrouded Glen would have been affected by the spell, otherwise how could it divert them?

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I wasn't clear with my example. People diverted, yes. For people living inside it's area I believe not (which is what I was actually thinking about).

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To me they are warped by being transformed into a hog, not from the BoAF spells. those spells affect the fire (causing it to exist) and the effect on the walking pile of pulled pork is from the flames, not the spell.

Otherwise you would have the question of next steps as well- if I throw a BoAF at a barn and the bran catches fire does the pig trapped in the barn get warping? After all if the flames from the BoAF inflict warping would not the flames they create also cause warping? They were, after all created by the BoAF, if less directly.

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So you don't consider the fire (of a BoAF) itself to be a "mystical effect"?

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Nope. It's fire, same as a bonfire, or perhaps more like a forge fire. certainly the fire is being affected by a mystical effect, in that it is burning without fuel and moving around through the air, but it itself is not a mystical affect any more than a flying magus is a mystical effect.

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After thinking some more I believe I found a breakdown that seems to match what I'd expect to warp and what I would not. I will just copy it from the other post, but it has different implications here and there, mostly because there I'm not actually concerned with warping.

Targets: Individuals, Rooms, Groups, Boundaries, etc. Eg. A Pilum of Fire, a person targeted by Wound that Weeps, a sword upon which Edge of the Razor is cast, things protected by an Individual ward, the actual boundary of a boundary spell.
1st degree targets: targets directly derived from Targets and affected by the spell, or things on which the Target relies for it's existence. Eg. People in a group, the individual to which a Part belongs, a sword upon which Blade of Virulent Flame is cast, things inside a Circle.

Targets and 1st degree targets suffer warping.

2nd degree targets: things wich are only tangencially affected by the spell. Eg. A person targeted by a Pilum, people attacked by swords enchanted with Edge of the Razor or Blade of Virulent Flame, things moving through a Hermes Portal, a thing bitten by a person transformed into a wolf, something gazed upon by someone with an Intellego Vision spell, things against which wards ward, things hit by an animated tree.

2nd degree targets do not suffer warping.

There are likely to exist a few corner cases (and a few examples might end up moved around after I think a bit more), but I think this pretty much sums up my opinion in a (seemingly, mostly) logical, self-consistent way.

Things which are Targets by themelves? Warp. Things that are intrinsically linked to a Target? Warp. Things that are only incidentally targeted by the effect (the BoAF could have been cast upon anyone, the Mutoed person could have attacked anything, the Intellego sense could have been brought upon anyone)? No warp.

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My understanding of RAW is that only Targets, not "first degree targets" get warping. I was under the impression that had been officially decided/decreed.

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Being Wounded is not an effect.
There are no "mystical effect" affecting (applied to) the toasted grog, even if the same "mystical effect" effects (causes) a Wound through excessive heating.

Being affected by rain, wind, fire, wood... there are no mystical effect applied to you. The meaning of "affected" should go no further than this.

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Care to explain why a magical fire is not a "mystical effect"?
Because to me it is an effect which seems pretty darn mystical.

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After much consideration, as much as I love the idea that powerful spells affecting target(s) (with a small T) grant Warping, I think it will open an ugly can of worms.

So for the sake of simplicity, only Target should get warping - and in the case of container-type spells (Ring, Room & co), their content at the time of casting.

It means that some common practices appeared early in the Order, like warning and preparations prior to casting spell like Shrouded Glen. It is a minor addendum to the Order history which won't change anything from the history.

Mages knows that when such spells are cast, they should be on the "good" side of the limit, whether it is Room, Structure, Circle or Boundary, not to be affected. And if a mage casts such spell without warning his sodales, then it is considering an unlawful attack on their person.

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A magical fire is as much a mystical effect as a magical rain or a magical pig. You won't get warping from being wet by rain or bitten by pigs, so none from burnt by fire.

In a sense, none of those are "mystical effect". The reall effects are "turning into a pig", "carrying rain down", and "creating fire."

You need 2 shortcuts to warp whoever ears an oink!:

  • the pig is a mytical effect
  • hearing is "affected"
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I think we have a language problem here.
To me, the effect of casting the spell Ball of Abysmal Flame is a ball of flame shooting forth.
"Creating a magical fire" is not an effect, it is just how the effect comes about.

Much like how a big ball of fire in a movie is a "special effect". It is the fire which is the effect, not the procedure to create it.

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Yeah, I'm using clipese here. But the problem is more of a conceptual nature.

Being hit by a BoaF is not being "subjected to a powerful mystical effect". If it caused warping, so would being bitten or rained on. Which is nonsense.

So "subjected" must take a limited meaning where the magic itself is applied and not its consequences.

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"Nonsense"? Why? Just because you don't like the consequences?

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Because "subjected to an oink!" is where madness lies.
Who wants a sword that warps its wielder?

Much better to differentiate between "magic is on you (inside)" and "magic is on you (against your skin)", where meaning is more important than words.

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As a side question: who gets it, and HOW ?
Ex: You are a rather young Hermatic mage, Warp Score is 2(12) - you had some botched spontan magics and you have a fresh Longevity Ritual. Now you have the unfortune to learn somehow Ars Goetia (Spirit)Summoning and Commanding. During the next years you botch 4 attempts of Commanding, and you command would be "Commune with me!". So you receive at least 4 warping points from an Infernal Art.
Will you have one aggregated Warping Score of 3(1) and seem to be magically warped,
OR will you have 2 separated Warping Scores as follows:

  • Warp Score (Magic): 2(12)
  • Warp Score (Infernal): 0(4)

What do you thing, how to calculate the accumulation of warping from different sources?

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