Weird Question: How much would long-term genetic impact of population isolation occur in Mythic Europe?

tl;dr version: What would be the consequences of population bottleneck/long-term consanguinity in Mythic Europe vs real life?

Super long version: Okay, so, Mythic Europe reality is based (loosely) on a blend of folkloric and academic beliefs held about the world in medieval Europe. The specifics of genetics weren't understood, but while the inner systems weren't comprehended, their outwardly observable manifestations are an obvious and universal part of being alive and in a community with people having kids, so broad things like "people get most or all of their traits from their parents but sometimes something goes wonky" and "incest: probably not a great idea" would be well-known, and thus represented within the Mythic European paradigm.

This awareness can be most obviously demonstrated by the fairly regular conflict occurring within the Catholic Church and its adherents over consanguinity laws - in the 800s they raised it from 4 degrees to 7, and in 1215, a mere five years prior to the canon start date of Ars Magica, they lowered it back to 4, ostensibly in response to marriage rates falling and illegitimate marriages happening more often as it became increasingly difficult for small, distributed communities to arrange enough marriages between adequately unrelated people. Of course, such understanding may not have been universal, particularly among the nobility, who did some mythologizing in their own right to justify the not-infrequent purchasing of papal indulgences to marry relatives due to a paucity of less-related marriage options of sufficient class, arguing on occasion (among other ideas) that the inherent superiority of high-class blood means the benefits of not sullying it by marrying across class outweigh or cancel out the negatives of incest. But still, it's clear that there was a general understanding that the less blood relation the average person had with one's spouse, the healthier the community would be.

What I'm a lot less clear on is how well the propogating effects of incest on a community isolated over a long period of time would be understood.

I'm working on a setting idea for a potential Theban Tribunal campaign I'd like to run. The idea is that when Rome was conquering and consolidating control of the Greek Peninsula in the 140s-80s BCE, a group of powerful Faerie Wizard priests in the major Greek city-states came together on a large-scale supernatural project, initially started as a method of protecting things and people of value and for guerilla warfare and reinforcement between allies against Rome, but which escalated at the culmination of the conflict and the realization that victory was impossible into a last-ditch effort to preserve as much of their cities' culture as possible while biding time for a triumphant return that never happened.

The project started out creating a Faerie regio network between the cities. When all hope was lost, the goal instead became to use these regiones as preservation grounds, taking as much of their irreplacable cultural paraphernalia as could reasonably be transported, as well as whichever citizens were willing to essentially go into mystical exile with them, using Glamour to turn the regiones into replicas of the city-states at the time they were fled from. The original hope was that this would be a temporary solution, and that they would come back when Rome was gone and they could reassert themselves as independent states right where they'd left off. This essentially never happened, with the area still in control of the Byzantine Empire as of the 1220 starting date, and Christianized to the point where they'd likely be targeted heavily if they came back regardless.

There's a bunch of cool ideas I want to explore with the idea of these cities trying to trap themselves in stasis for 1,300 years and how unintentionally alien that process would make them, like having the oldest people there have been around from the start and packing insane Warping scores from the anti-aging effects (and probably having ridiculously swingy Sympathy Traits to keep their Faerie Rank manageable), or different projects each city would undertake to try to retrieve more of their pasts such as making Faerie analogues of their deceased legendary figures, or how the Greek gods would likely be rather active in the regiones as the largest concentrations of their worshipers, and most of all how each place would respond to the inevitability of attempted cultural evolution despite their best efforts, with some evolving willingly because democracy and/or philosophy are themselves part of the cultural traditions they're preserving while others become stagnant parodies of themselves through strictly-policed reenactment of cultural norms and practices that haven't made sense in over a millennium.

But for the purposes of this thread I mainly want to focus on the incest. Within the context of the Mythic European belief framework, how screwed would these guys be if they weren't drawing in new breeding population from the outside world this whole time? Some of the effects could and probably would be mitigated by Faerie immigration, whether arriving autonomously or summoned/created to add to the population (either as citizens or slaves), but it would still be predominantly human, and I need to figure out the consequences of that in the Mythic European framework.

IRL, it looks like it would be at least plausible for a population of 500 humans to repopulate without being seriously messed over by genetic drift. A very quick and dirty Google search suggests that the "average" Greek city-state would have a total human population of about 50,000, of which roughly 10% would be actual citizens. Of course, that's super inexact, Athens would be at least four times bigger and "unimportant" city-states would be like a quarter that size, but that seems like a good ballpark to me with only the major city-states being part of the project, but also doing so during a series of losing wars across the peninsula. Depending on exactly how generously we fudge the "how many people came" and "what proportions of each class of person" numbers, the outcomes are... potentially plausible, but not pretty. Assuming 1% of the full citizens of these city-states went into exile with the project organizers, they'd just barely clear the "theoretically salvageable population" number even if they were insistent on maintaining reproductive class separation from whatever number of non-citizen freemen and slaves came with them. Then again, a sample of citizens from the same city-state might not meet the genetic diversity expectation of that 500-person estimate, because we're already pre-selecting from a shared hereditary class in the same geographic area.

On the flip side, though, I'm not sure how well-understood the compounding effects of generational consanguinous marriage on a large scale would be understood, and therefore reflected, in the Mythic European framework. I mean, Adam and Eve (and later Noah and... does his wife have a name?) are, within the predominant religious frameworks, the shared origin of all living humans, and that's an enormous amount of incest for the entire human population to be founded upon. Without the Mythic European paradigm understanding or reflecting the genetic underpinnings of why incest often has negative outcomes (the loss of genetic variance), it seems plausible that starting with a small genetic variance in the first place wouldn't necessarily matter - as long as the population eventually got big enough that people stopped making babies with their siblings and first cousins, their shared ancestors doing so would cease to have a negative impact on the community. If taken this way, the number of people who initially went into exile in each city would be completely irrelevant by the start date except as a small detail in the regiones' founding myths.

What do you guys think? Is my understanding of the Mythic European view on long-term incestuous community-building missing crucial information that would make the Greeks doing it turn out worse than when Adam & Eve did it, or, hell, am I wrong about the medieval conception of those human origin stories, and maybe they were like "well yeah Adam & Eve made Cain & Abel, but they weren't married to their sisters, God made wives for them out of dust or rib or whatever"? Any input is appreciated.

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It's all the faeries fault, I tell you. God will not protect those pagans.

Unless you want to somehow make this very plot-relevant, I'd just ignore RL math and genetics.

I mean, you are already going to have heavily warped characters, and I imagine that a sizeable amount of faerie-blooded. Does it matter if you having hooves instead of feet was caused because your father and your mother are cousins, because your grandfather was a satyr, or because you breath magical air every day?

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@RafaelB You make a good point. I guess I was just wondering whether their success at being here 1,300 years later would feel like an existential plot hole. Like those fantasy settings where monsters are gobbling up human communities all day every day since forever ago and you're left thinking "How is there still a thriving human empire here?"

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I am on par with Rafael.
Considering what your are describing, the warping and faerie influence will take precedence over consanguinity since they don't happen on the same time-scale:

  • Warping happen within a few decades for one person, or possibly faster with high aura (likely in your setting)
  • Faerie influence through foods and drinks can happen overnight
  • Consanguinity happens at most once per generation.

Considering that, a "fair" amount ("fair" being left to you to decide the ratio) will be turned into Faerie being (akin to transformed human for magical creature). At this stage, their Faerie nature will (IMO) more on their future descendants than the possible consanguinity.

Being partially Faerie will come with it owns consequences. For example, each pocket-village could be aligned with one Court, or one Faerie-Greek God. After several generations, there could be a full priesthood, possibly Cult with Initiation into Faerie mysteries. They could re-enacting on a regular basis various part of the Greek myth to feed their faerie neighbours/masters.
Maybe each city-state citizen will start to have some common traits based on this alignment.

Bear in mind that Faerie blood comes also with increased longevity, this combined with how wacky the time flow can be in some regio can lead to more complications with some city-states not evolving at the same pace as their counterparts.

That's all for now.
Your idea sounds like a fun premise for a long Saga.

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Thanks! How exactly I'd execute on it depends on what my future players want, but I think it'd make a neat concept for a Merinita-backed chapter house to be founded at normal Athens with the purpose of studying the regio when the boundary there is first discovered, and then to let the players gradually figure out what in the world is happening when they're seemingly transported to Ancient Athens but everything's just... off. Granted I don't want to shoehorn my players too much on their character concepts, so maybe making the primary settings have Divine and Faerie Auras respectively is going too far?

Anyway, the point has successfully been made that Warping and Faerie Blood matter more than historical consanguinity.

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Being a biologist IRL, I would like to weigh in here.

In the real world, this topic has been studied quite intensely, since inbreeding is an important tool for discovering many things, notable ancient migrations of humans.

For example the peopling of Australia has been studied quite intensely and is the subject of a lot of debate because of how remote it is. I remember that scientists have estimated that as little as 9 couples of humans (so nine monogamous male-female pairs) would be enough to account for the peopling of australia. This is not to say that scientist have proven that contemporary aboriginal australians actually descend from 9 monogamous pairs of humans, only that 9 pairs is the lowest number of pairs necessary to provide enough variation to prevent incest from making the resulting population non-viable within a few generations.

In other words if your regio is founded by more than 9 couples and has lasted for less 50.000-100.000 years you should be fine. This is not to say that there will be 0 problems from such a low founding population. Just that the effects of adding more people will make the effects progressively less apparent. Keep in mind that (again in the real world) all of modern humanity is descended from somewhere between 1000 and 10000 humans (just today I read the the best estimate is 1300ish), so in terms of biology humans just are a generally inbred species.

at approximately 50.000+ individuals you will have very few problems.

Assuming that you do take a small founding population the primary effects will be low variation in traits. This makes it likely that certain inherited diseases will occur at much higher frequencies than normally. This might be something that is unknowable until it happens (e.g. an extreme susceptibility to certain diseases that dont occur in the regio) or a much higher frequency of things like albinism, dwarfism, bleeding syndrom, sickle cell anemia, have your pick. Another interesting effect of a small founding population would be a low variation in physical traits: e.g. a very limited selection of possible eye, hair or skin colors, low variation in height, build etc.

These effects in variation might very well be completely cancelled out by faerie effects which naturally tend to modify appearance.

Also the susceptibility of a population is primarily determined by the amount of females who chose to have children as the growth rate of human populations is primarily determined by female fertility*. it makes a difference how monogamous populations are too, since half-half siblings are less related to each other than full siblings. The average length of fertility* would also matter as it gives the living humans more time to pass on more copies of their genes.

*note that I use the words "fertility" in the meaning of "how many children people actually have" as opposed to "what potential a person has for making children"

TL:DR: Even with just a thousand people your population would be perfectly fine from an inbreeding perspective, but if you want to to do something cool with it, pick a few rare traits (cosmetic and or detrimental** ones) and have them be much more frequent than what would be expected in the wider population.

**for some reason the traits are almost never beneficial.

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Realistically the population of even a single ancient city had enough genetic diversity this would not be an issue.
Warping from faerie auras would be.

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Warping would not be so bad as you cease to get warping points when you atune to the realm which would happen when you get your first faery supernatural skill or when becoming faery blooded...

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Odd this topic came up about the same time as news of an poorly verified study came out. Here is the link I saw on SlashDot. Basically the title is "Population Collapse Almost Wiped Out Human Ancestors, Say Scientists"

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Yeah, I don't think Aura Warping would actually take the population too far. The ones who'd be super Warped would be those who paid for Faerie Wizardry to give them Aura-duration anti-aging and stayed alive a long time, or those otherwise subjecting themselves to regular supernatural influence.

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As others have pointed out, Aura Warping has a limit to it. Normally hit around 5. Not sure about Faerie, but Magic Aura tend to warp to a pattern. Meaning all the mundane tend to end up with the same virtues and flaws from it.

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