What are your House Rules?

I'm wondering what are your house rules? What rules have you changed? What rule interpretations or clarifications have you decided on in vague areas? What rule changes you think would work for the game, even though you haven't implemented them?

I'm currently gameless, which is why I'm contemplating starting an ArM game and am mulling over some house rules for it. So I'm interested in your thoughts on house rules in general. :slight_smile:

The main and huge change I think I'll institute is making Art advancement as slow as Ability advancemnt - use the Ability column for the XP costs of Art improvements as well. (Possibly not for Infernal/Goetic Arts, however...) Having run some basic numbers, I think it would actually make elder magi much more in line with the setting's assumed power level (indeed, stilll leaving them perhaps too strong), while encouraging all kinds of colorful ways to acquire bonsues to spellcasting (from Mysteries to attuning talismans).

Well, we've been interpreting the fast casting rules as:

A maga can cast a formulaic spell and react with a fast cast (if the fast cast comes second). She can continue fast casting until she can't make the initiative/quickness roll.

If the maga needs to fast cast before her formulaic spell is cast, she can't complete the original casting.

Ok...that seems good, but consider...

To teach an apprentice, you would need to garner 1125 total experience.
If you consider that 10 experience is on the high end of what to expect from Vis or book study, this is what you get...
Eight seasons to raise ANY of the arts to five (5).
One hundred twenty seasons in all...(120)
Thirty years to get scores enough to train an apprentice. If you consider that most magi don't Gauntlet until mid twenties, your talking about the possibility, that a Magi might train one at say fiftyfive (55). Of course thats assuming the Magi doesn't have anything else to do during that time period.
Considering that...lets see. During that period there MIGHT be four Tribunals and one Grand Tribunal...so we can add five seasons to his time. We can also assume that one season in four is taken by Covenant duties... You are planning on having some stories for the character, so we can assume that at LEAST one season a year you will motivate the Magus to do something outside his lab... The player decides he would like a Familiar. This requires a season to find (at least), plus another to Bind... He decides a few powers would be good...(say three)...so now we are at (190) seasons (47 or so years)...
So most Magi would be in their 70's (at least) before they train someone...
This of course assumes that you don't study ANYTHING else...ie Magic Theory, Parma, etc
You might need to lower the minimum score for training an apprentice....or raise the quality of books...but that seems pointless considering what you are trying to do...
You could also do this in a much simpler way...
Enforce the quality of books at what the book says...roughly 6 being the standard. Don't include books that have qualities of 10-15. You should also keep them busy. Don't let the Magi take root in their labs. Enforce low adventure experience or maybe not, to encourage them to do so...You can therefore make them put their experience in certain things...You can assign this experience instead of letting them choose..that way they can't boost their Arts with adventure exp.

Such a massive change reverbates throughout the rules. The number of changes needed are surprisingly little considering the magnitude of the change, but there are still several rules that are implicated.

  • Arts progress as Abilities - the basic change.
  • Maximum Arts at character generation follow the same rules as Abilities.
  • Puissant Art provides a +2 bonus, like Puissant Ability.
  • Maximum Art scores assumed to be 20. Maximum age assumed to be about 125 (instead of 145).
  • Minimum competency to train an apprentice is 2 in each Art.

I think this will suffice. I'm open to criticism, though.

Sorry, but I consider my change simpler. :slight_smile: I think following the ArM RAW leads to undesirably high Art scores, book Quality scores, and so on under reasonable assumptions, and I see no need to rape the setting into unreasonable assumptions.

I don't disagree with you at all... :smiley:

The scale is wrong (my opinion of course)
Magi out of gauntlet cast level 35 spells? Huh?
Your option is definately viable...but doing that means you need to look at everything...you seems to be doing so...

..though it IS a matter of scale...If you want high level spells, and can handle that, then its okay. I see very little in the way of high power games going on, so perhaps this is a problem..maybe its just that most SG's don't like the extra work of running high powered games????

In two plus years we have Magi with scores in the 20's (couple anyway) and all the rest (magi) are in the teens...It does make the game more difficult, but it also make it more of a challenge for the SG...
The Magi are now persuing other interests than simple score increases...
There are lots of stories now centered around these magi as they seek to fill holes or increase their knowledge of 'other' things. It actually get comical to see a magi who can spont a level thirty spell, struggle with simple stuff...

Good luck and let us know how it works out

Hmm well first thing i can say is I'm glad Im not playing in your saga, YR7 lol.

Butchering the best benefits of even bothering to be a magus rather than just a skilled mundane for some odd notion of "realism" would make the game both far more frustrating than it already can be for magi of even moderate skill as well as a bit tedious.

Urien, As for how you have Magi only 2 years out of Gauntlet who have reached the teens in any Arts let alone 20(or more) sounds like you have some highly lopsided specialists rather than well rounded characters.

In our saga, even near to 20 years out of Gauntlet, none of our magi have anywhere near 20 in any art and even with puissant Art ability I think the best score anyone has is around 15 in one Technique.

There are more than enough ways to keep Art scores from advancing rapidly without taking away the one main advantage that makes being a magi worthwhile. However, to each their own and good luck to you if you find players happy to suffer through such longthy advancement.

Maybe when they are on their deathbeds they might be able to muster their first and last 6th magnitude spell before expiring. lol.

I beleive he means 2 years of real time, not game time

:confused: Under my system, a specialized magus might have for example an Affinity in and Puissant Ignem, a Minor Magical Focus in burning things, and some other boosting-virtue (say, Cyclic Magic). He will have a score of 6 (112.5 XP) in Ignem, and say 4 (50 XP) in Creo, and let's say Stamina +3. All in all, he has a Casting Total of +22 [3 (Sta)+8 (Ig)+4 (Cr)+4 (focus)+3 (cyclic)]. That's more than enough to cast a Pilum of Fire, and even an Arc of Fiery Ribbons in most environments. Magi are still far, far more powerful than mundanes, even initially.

Besides, one of the motivating factors is that this change will encourage magi to acquire various bonuses. A powerful magus wouldn't be one that simply increased his Arts. Instead, a powerful magus would be the one that is wise in the use of natural correspondces to enahnce his magic (Ceremonial Casting), has mastered the occult art of utilizing the deep mystic resonances of Form & Material (Potent Magic) and constructed a Talisman to enhance them further (Talisman Attunement). He has uncovered the long-forgotten secrets of Gorgiastic Magic, and was initiated into the secrets of Theurgy... Being a powerful wizard requires more than increasing your Arts, it requires actually incorporating occult secrets and traditions into your work - from very generic Hermetic techniques (talisman attunement, ceremonical magic) to the esoteric (potent spells) and even exotic secrets (Theurgy) and the long-forgotten great magics of the past (Gorgiastic Magic). The result are elder magi that are far more colorful and interesting than "I maxed out my Ignem, arrg!".

By my calculations, an old magus would be able to have a Casting Total in excess of 90. That's still too much, really, as this is before various bonuses, not to mention Wizard's Communion. Compare this total to the Might of the powerful demons and angels, and you'll see why. Compare it to the most powerful spells known to the Order, in the published spells, and you'll see why.

If the game progresses far enough, PC magi could reach impressive might. So far dwarfing mundanes that it isn't funny. That this is true despite cutting the Arts by 2, effectively, speaks volumes on the excessive power scale of magi in core ArM.

Consider a core ArM5 wizard. His top Arts, the book tells us, are no more than 40 (820 XP). At the rate of 30 XP per year, and assuming he starts from a score of 10 (55 XP) this translates to a gain of 765 XP over 120 years, i.e. 25.5 years or 0.2125 of his post-Gauntlet life. The ArM5 estimate of 30 XP per year is a bit low in my (limited) experience, but even with it it's entirely reasonable for a magus to have this much XP in one or perhaps even two Arts (it would still leave him more than half his time for other persuits). And this without considering Affinity, Puissance, or the various Quality-enhancing virtues (I definitely think the 30 XP per year is too low; 40 XP per year sounds better, IMO, perhaps even more).

His casting total could easily be +125 [5* (Sta) +40 (Tech) +40 (Form) +40 (Focus)], and will probably be far greater due to virtues, mysteries, a talisman, ceremonical casting, and so on. This allows him, for example, to face off an opponent with Faerie Might 75 - a massively powerful faerie lord - and cast a level 45 spell with penetration just on the raw power alone. Add in Penetration and the various bonuses, not to mention an arcane connection and some sympathetic penetration bonuses, and you easily see that elder magi are simply unstoppable in the setting. They can kill, dominate, or otherwise overcome the most powerful faeries, demons, or angels, and can wield spells of 25th and higher magnitude, enough to demolish entire armies, kingdoms, and cities with a single spell.
[* Stamina of +5 and Intelligence of +5 are extremely easy to manufacture, at these power levels, given sufficient raw vis - so I'm assuming they were.]

Now consider a magus following my system.
An Ability at 20 costs 1050 XP, which is close to the core Art at 40 (820 XP) after an Affinity (1230 XP). Actually, 1230 XP provides for an Ability at 21, so let's work with that figure. So we have two arts at score 21, with two Affinities. Let's add two Puissance Art as well, bringing each to 23. Let's assume a Magical Focus as well, and Potent Magic (perhaps both through initiations); and let's assume a Magic Theory of 10 (modest, I think, for elder magi that can use it) so his Potent Spells acquire a +10 bonus. He surely has an attuned talisman too, let's give him another +5 from that. This alone would traslate to a casting total of +87 [3 (Sta)+23 (Tech)+23 (Form)+23 (Focus)+10 (Potency)+5 (Talisman)]. Add in Artes Liberales and Philosophiae from Ceremonial Casting, plus a +5 bonus for material items used in ceremonies (as per the Jerbiton section of Societas), plus a positive Aura, plus some other virtues or mysteries (like, say, Names of Power)... you fairly easily end up with a Casting Total in excess of 90, probably even in excess of 100. And we haven't even considered raw vis, or included using Confidence...

The result is that such magi are still very powerful. Powerful enough to face even a powerful faerie (able to cast a level 15-20 spell with penetration against MR 75; add in skill at Penetration and spell mastery and they can field level 25 spells or more even without arcane connections, which are effective at fighting but still not "I'll kill you in one spell" uber-powreful). Powerful enough to cast the Order's most powerful spells single-handedly, and with some penetration left. Powerful enough to devise spells that will destroy entire cities, armies, perhaps even kingdoms. But this time, at least this level of power takes effort and greatness - two affinities, two puissant arts, a magical focus, potent magic - all heavy investments.

The typical archmagus will probably not be min-maxed to such a degree, but he surely wouldn't be very far off. He'll still have considerable Art scores, he'll still acquire various virtues, mysteries, and bonuses. The Order is still powerful, immensly powerful.

Finally, consider young magi, under my system. As noted above, a starting specialist magus can very well start with a Pilum of Fire or even Arc of Fiery Ribbons (level 25 spells). With a +22 casting total, he's in principle even able to cast a Ball of Abysmal Flame (level 35 spells) with a bit of luck and fatigue. I think that's more than enough for a magus to stand out from the mundanes.

A magus that isn't specializing might have, for example, a score of 2 in relevant Arts. His base casting total is hence merely around +5 [1 (Sta)+2 (Tech)+2 (Form)], enough to cast a level 20 spell in a supporting aura with fatigue given a bit of luck. Within his area of expertiese, he'll probably manage to squeeze through another magnitude for a level 25 spell. Very respectable too.

Spontanous magic will be at lower levels, of course. The specialist might cast a level 14 spell, the generalist a level 6 spell. Not overly impressive, perhaps, but enough to allow the generalist to do some minor tricks and the specialist to do something somewhat meaningful. I think that's enough for spontanous magic to still be significant, and capable of saving the day at the hands of an inventive player.

A major effect is that for young magi even small bonuses now become important. Investing confidence, burning raw vis, using a booming voice, the local aura... and of course the various sundry bonuses ("let's wait for the moon to rise, so I can cast the spell..."). The Mythic and colorful elements become very important, which is cool.

To climb from Art 5 to Art 10 requires 200 XP, which is probably about 20 Seasons (assuming around 10 XP per Season, e.g. by a level 10 well-authored Summa) - 5 years, probably spread out over a decade or more.

To climb from Art 0 to 2 requires 15 XP, i.e. it can be done in one season with a good book (a low-level Summa written by someone with a high score). The requirement to have a score of 2 in every Art to teach an apprentice is just like the requirement to have a score of 5 in the core rules (15 XP).

I see your reasoning and sure, within a limited framework it would work but consider these thoughts:

You've described one particular magus who could have some moderate ability out of Gauntlet provided he chose the virtues you have named at the expense of many other types of virtues that are equally attractive. Should your combo not suit everyone, youll end up with one capabale wizard and lots of others who have to tread water for a good 40-50 years before they can tie their own shoelaces with a decent ReHe spell lol.

As it shouldn't be under any reading of the rules, frankly. A magus without effort put into mundane skills as well isnt much a magus, just a magic conduit. A Bonsagus without decent scribe and teaching skill (add: MT, Artes Liberales and Philosophiae skill as well) isnt much use to anyone. So too a Verditius without a decent Craft (maybe even more than one) and Philosophiae is little more than perpetual forge companion with the Gift, lol.)

Ceremonial casting? Thats an entire chunk of any magus' potential life span right there (seeking first the lost secrets of mercurial magic and then spending years of experimentation to incorporate them into Hermetic Theory. Good luck if they ever get more than 10 in any Art with that quest to pursue.

Something which is already fundamental to any Verditius (s+m bonus attunement is part and parcel of Verditius magic to begin with) who subsequently endeavours to learn the relevant minor and major House mysteries.

Again, an entire lifetime's quest in pursuit of Ancient Magics and the even harder task of a). finding them, b). having the capacity to understand whatever tidbits he/she might find and c). the years of travel, manifold experimentation (highly risky at the best of times) and repeated lab failures before incorporating even a fraction of such long lost magics into Hermetic Theory.

On this we agree, but we differ on extending the benefit of faster advancement in the Arts (and with it the implied greater understanding of the nature and interrelation of those Arts) to offset such otherwise plodding and frustration-ridden life quests.

If your troupe is up for such a slow route to greatness then more power to them! (or less as the case may be) :wink:

I can easily see your desire to slow down arts advancement, but how easy is it to actually reach 40 in an art, it seems any books that would be helpfull after ~20 would be extremly expensive or hard to aquire, and studying from vis would be prohibitively epensive for most magi.

I see a problem with any verditius you may have. While all the other players are running about trying to unlock these mysteries the verdi only needs to get initiated into a couple of his house mysteries so he can multiple a couple of scores and then enchant high level effects while not really bothering with his arts.

YR7: You are aware that aquiring mysteries generally takes up several years of game time, with little to no advancement in any magical skill?
Or that not nearly every magus has a focus.
Not to mention that learning the spells required to increase any attribute to 5 is level 55, and that these spells are not widely known in the order (unless you happen to be in house Mercere).
Under your system learning any spell would be pretty tricky (since you'd end up with pretty low lab totals). Longevity rituals would be pretty weak, so magi wouldn't live too long... I doubt you'd see any living long enough to actually enter twilight...

And, although I quite agree with all your other arguments, this is maybe the factor he has the least considered.
If most magi die by age 80-100, they'll never have time to study their arts.

Another interesting factor is the spells: With a +3 Int, 2 arts at 10, MT at 7, aura of 5, most spells are simply impossible to learn until you want to spend a lot of seasons on it... which further decreases the time you spend in your arts, or could spend to undergo initiations and such.
=> Weak magi, with little spells, or at least little spells above level 20-30, even in the end of their lives. And don't get me started on rituals: Even a specialist who had somehow increased his arts to level 20 and MT to 10 would be hard pressed to invent a simple level 50 ritual...

Agnar is correct. Two RT years. Thirty-thirtyfive years out.
As for specialists, I've seen CT of 40's, five or six years out.

Ah 2yrs RT (35 yrs saga time) is more understandable and hardly surprising that any dedicated studying magus should have substantial CTs by that time.

Again hardly surprising, they are after all specialists and only impressive within a very narrow range of circumstances. If characters want to sacrifice virtue space for foci and other specialised casting multipliers then fine, they should be uber powerful in one or two areas tops. In the bulk of other situations such specialists are usually completely worthless to the saga.

Such is the choice a player must make for his/her magus.

Well, I've described an example min/maxed magus. I'm sure there are other ways to min/max magi to similar levels. The point isn't to encourage min/maxing, it is rather to be prepared for it - and, perhaps, channel it to desired directions.

Actually, tying one's shoelaces with a spell requires a ReHe level 5 spell (base 3, +1 Part), which any competent (2 in all Arts) magus has a good chance to cast, especially in a magical aura, with the investment of fatigue. The reason I'm mentioning it is because it's an example of how magi can, in fact, cast perfectly useful spells with low (half the current) art scores. [Tying one's shoelaces without fatigue requires a Casting Total of 25, which is hardly an unskilled magus' total even under core rules; under my rules, two arts at 10 or so would suffice (depending on stamina and aura), which is perfectly reasonable for a magus interested in plants or Rego and is a master magus.]

What? Ceremonial Casting, ArM5 core book, p. 83. You can use it on formulaic spells with a Spell Mastery, see Societas under Jerbiton.

A truly powerful magus, in my opinion, will uncover one great advance in magic. Perhaps it will be discovering some ancient magic. Perhaps it will be a brilliant piece of original research. Perhaps it will be uncovering the lost writings of Apromor. Perhaps it will simply be a series of visitations by hte spirit of Prometheus, or some other Daemon, and the noting down of his teaching. Or just a huge insight brought from Twilight. Something, some great thing, is required for you to be a truly great magus, IMO.

Well, I don't have a group yet. Maybe none will wish to undergo such treatment. :slight_smile:

I agree. My proposal won't change that, it will simply change the scales from 40 and 20 to 20 and 10. I think such a change will be better for the game.

A good point. I'll have to think it over.

The purpose of the above calculations isn't to establish the regular magus' power, but rather give a scale for the extreme case. I expect most magi to fall short of this scale, but not by an order of magnitude. There is a reason why Affinity with Magic Theory is a more common character choice than Affinity with Basketweaving, and why most magi don't have an Intelligence score of -5.

Obtaining the tractatus to raise levels to 40 (or, in my system, 20) and acquire mysteries is time-consuming, yes. But I actually expect my players to manage to pull both off. Players are a canniving, cunning lot. They will find a plausible and fun way to explain how they gained access to the Tractatus Hoard of the Legion of Mithras, and will be able to get themselves intitiated into deep mysteries with relatively little investment (say, 10 years in total wasted, another 10 earning XP in less desirable Abilities/ways...).

One maga of mine obtained a +5 Intelligence score 45 seasons post gauntlet. Granted, this was under pretty ideal conditions. But I expect ArM magi to be able to do similarly in most sagas, if not in one decade than in two or three. All it takes is a wizard interested in the domains of Creo and Mentem, given reasonable resources to research and the aid of one other magus that's a good lab assistant (mine was; getting a +5 to Int can be highly motivating - although she actually pursued this for altruistic reasons).

Under my system magi will learn spells of about half the level they currently do (a bit more, as much of the lab total isn't arts). This isn't too bad, magi will still learn pretty powerful spells. Specialists would still be able to learn (and invent) the Order's most powerful spells; the difference is that now inventing a level 75 spell would, indeed, be an achievement rather than something any wizard that invests a few years studying some good books can do. And that elder magi would be inventing such spells, instead of spells of level 100 or more.

Even under core ArM5, good longevity potions are made by specialists. Under my system, a specialist's Lab Total might be 83 [3 (Int)+20 (Creo)+20 (Corpus)+20 (Focus)+5 (Aura)+10 (Magic Theory)+5 (sundry bonuses)], providing a +17 bonus to aging rolls. This suffices to provide virtual immunity against any aging effect, beyond cosmetics, till age 190 [9+X/10-1 (living conditions)-17=10]. That's more than enough.

If you want to make your own longevity potion, and aren't a Creo Corpus specialist - then yes, you have a slight problem. With mediocre investment you might be able to obtain a lab total of 26 [3 (Int)+5 (Cr)+5 (Co)+5 (aura)+7 (MT)+1 (vis)], enough for a +7 potion that would only suffice to provide consistent immunity to aging until age 90 [9+X/10-1 (living conditions)-7=10]. You'll probably need to invent an even weaker potion at young age, improve your CrCo lab total and MT and invent this potion once the prior one failed, and then invent an even stronger one by investing raw vis and using lab assistance (familiar+apprentice) past your 9th decade. This still suffices to carry you through to very old age, although perhaps not to age 145 (Final Twilight, by ArM5 core, sets around there). Even a non-specialist can whip up a longevity potion to extend his lifespan to around a century or more, by investing some raw vis, a few years of study, and with the aid of a familiar and apprentice/assistant; it really isn't a problem.

My aforementioned maga also got a longevity potion brewed by the same guy that invented the Gift of Reason spell for her (both Creo Corpus, his specialty). It provided her virtual immunity. All within less than a decade post gauntlet.

Core magi are just too powerful. Even when you cut their Arts in half, they are still plenty powerful to do all the stuff ArM5 expects them to do, indeed they are just about as powerful as ArM5 implicitly expects them to be.

With these stats, your Lab Total of 35 suffices to invent a level 15 spell in one season, a level 20 spell in two seasons. Note that you could learn a level 35 spell from your parens or a lab text. Suddenly it pays to learn the spells you want from SG-controlled, and hence story-brewing, resources.

Also note that this is the capacity of a master (i.e. a capable professional, no mere Journeyman) magus skilled in the domain but not min/maxed towards it (no relevant virtues or flaws). A master magus learns the Order's mediocre but signature (level 35) spells. A more specialized magus (focus, two puissant abilities/arts) reaches lab total 49, let's round to 50. A master specialist magus can learn powerful spells from his discipline (level 50), but still not the most powerful ones (level 75); he can invent reasonably powerful spells (level 25 in one season, level 30 in two seasons) on his own.

Isn't this MORE fitting to the setting and game than being able to invent powerful spells at your whim and a master (not archmagus - just master) magus being able to learn the most potent magics of the Order in his area of expertise?

I disagree. I think you underestimate the player's ability to draw sundry bonuses and reach impressive lab totals even with arts cut in half. With the above 83 lab total, for example, inventing a level 50 spell requires but two seasons, and this even without assistants in the lab.

One flaw that seems to appear as a constant in most of your reasonnings is the tendancy to assume maguses will always have an applicable foci. While I love them, I wouldn't like to be forced to take one and stay within its boudaries in order to acheive anything meaningfull.
One other (and related) is that you seems to consider that magi will be mostly specialized. A flambeau wanting to be efficient at his Fire Spells had better not want to be able to cast a Leap of Homecoming if need be.

Frankly, if it suits you, fine, but I'd prefer a lot having difficulties to find books and vis (which would make it hard to get past, say, level 15) than simply being barred so much in the overall increase of the Arts.

A Pilum of Fire (or Lifting the Dangling Puppet) is meaningful. You don't really need much of a focus to be meaningful. To be frighteningly effective, like casting a Ball of Abysmal Flame or The Walking Corpse (level 35) you'd need a focus, unless you're also frighteningly powerful in your Arts.

Whyever do magi need to cast such high-level spells to be "effective" or "worthwhile"? A min/maxed magus straight out of gauntlet can cast level 40 perhaps even level 50 spells. To me this isn't being effective, it's being overly effective. It's the sort of competency I'd expect from powerful magi, not neophytes. We're spoiled into thinking this is the proper power level for magi, but really it isn't. Being able to regularly pull off level 15 spells is nothing to be sneered at. It's damn effective, especially when combined with being able to cast even more powerful spells with some luck and effort.

Leap of Homecoming is a level 35 spell. That's pretty high level, in fact its the highest spell level in the ReCo spells provided in the core book. Why on earth should every magus and his cousin expect to be able to pull off the highest-level standard spell in the art combination? Pulling off such a stunt should require some hard work, damn it. Specifically, bringing both Arts to about 10 [3 (Int)+10 (Re)+10 (Co)+7 (MT)+5 (Aura)] and obtaining a lab text is required. Under the core rules, assuming initial basic competency (score 5 in both Arts), this requires 80 XP, which means that any magus can learn the spell by investing about 9 seasons into it. In other words, anyone can pull off the most powerful spells in the core book under this Technique-Form combination with a smidgin of effort (as measured over the 480 seasons or so lifetime). In my system, starting again at competency (score 2 in both Arts) one requires 520 XP, i.e. about 53 seasons (about 13 years). Thirteen years may seem like a lot, but it's actually not a big investment to be able to cast powerful spells in the field (it's only 13 out of 120); and again there are more effective ways to learn such spells than merely increasing the arts (improving the lab, binding a familiar...).

You don't need to be specialized to achieve feats such as casting a 35 level spell. But I think you do need to be either specialized or invest a substantial amount of effort. I don't see a level 35 spell as a mere utility spell any magus should have. Those are level 5, perhaps level 10 spells. Seventh magnitude spells pack significant power, and should be spells to be respected, not sideshow diversions.

:shrug: It doesn't seem like I'm winning over advocates. To each his own.

I see your justifications Lucius, I just personally think that the overall race against time every magus faces (specialist high-level Longevity Ritual makers are neither easily found nor affordable IF found, for all but the rare magus from any Spring covenant and for most magi even from Summer covenants) warrants a bit more generosity in advancement capability than you seem willing to offer.

With lots of likely distractions from any meaningful study to throw at players year after year, I think it can already take long enough to progress to mega magic wielder level (even with low cost Art advancement) without hobbling them out of the starting gate. Nevertheless, it's, as you say, a subjective judgement call.

Just hope you consider that all the magi will not always be together to face any given threat and the chances of survival for a lone magus with handicapped Arts vs anything with a decent MR, is slim to nil. Not too fun for the player in such circumstances, I would say.

Good luck recruiting players nevertheless. :slight_smile:

Lucius? O_o

oops sorry, momentary brainfog when posting that last reponse lol.

read: YR7 :wink: