Hi everyone, I'm sorry to reply to a thread that's a little old but I don't really check the forum these days.
In our saga, part of the backstory that the SG came up with is that the primus of House Tremere realised that the war was done on false pretenses, and that the order was weakened by losing so many magic traditions. This primus then started commissioning various secret research projects to recreate this lost knowledge. One of these was a research project to recreate the Diedne Magic virtue.
One of our NPCs was the apprentice of this researcher and his successful research subject. So she has Elemental Magic AND Diedne Magic, and is a major plot point in our saga.
With great respect Mr. Ferguson, especially with regards to the Mirarion stories you wrote that I still adore to this day, I believe I have to disagree on your points.
While the subject of Diedne being brought up in Ars can be tiresome and maybe the answer of "It doesn't matter" or "yes, they were infernal" might be the appealing and best choice to move the setting along...I believe there are major repercussions if the Diedne were proven innocent, as a house, of infernalism.
That reason being the complicity of Guernicus. Especially in a manner they betrayed Diedne, and then proceeded to purge all Hermetic records of them. Remember that they did this specifically to regain authority, since at the time, increasingly few respected the rule of law. It wasn't just Diedne vs. Tremere; the Bjornaer chapter shows us it was initially also a widespread violence of Latinites attacking hedgies (Hermetic Hedgies that is) and other nonlatin traditions in the order
If Diedne are pardoned of the crimes levied against them; would your trust in Guernicus and their rule of law remain unshaken? There is certain to be a slide into 'chaos' for the Order, as the people who are meant to presume law and order with the support of the Primi and Praecos lose their positions of respect and most importantly credibility. This is a major issue the Order will have to face and come to a decision upon.
Regarding your comparison to IRL, the way I've seen it, the world of Ars didnāt move on. Being a Diedne is still considered grounds for marching. Researching Diedne is also forbidden, and hermetic history was deliberately purged of Diedne.
Along with the certainty that wizards do not act like normal people. They often do not run from the truth or hide from it if it hurts them. Individuals may, but the order is a curious creature that hounds and bites without respite. Magi don't hide from the truth. If anything, they are the ones to know it where most of the world fails to understand.
It clearly did, in the canon description. From an age of distrust between magi, not only between Latin and non-Latin magi, the Order moved on into a prospering era of increasing trade and colaboration. They did not move on towards reconciliation and remembrance, but instead they moved on by erasing difficult parts of their history, towards a new kind of stability.
That, I think, is not a statement about the canon setting, but about the RP genre you want to play. I too, see a strong tendency that most players want to play magi with a 21C, politically correct mindset. Players want to put things right, regardless of what authentic people in the setting would do. We want to play tragedies, in the Aristotelean sense, where the characters are better than their real life counter-parts. Canon mandates this, but it does not dictate it. It deliberately encourages different genres and styles of play, and different interpretations of the setting.
Thus the Ā«slide into 'chaos'Ā» is not certain. If the saga is a story of truth-seeking heroes, yes it would. If the saga is a story of pragmatic empire builders developing the Order, or some other grand symbol of power, it would not.
Most of the world now accepts colonialism had bad outcomes for the indigenous people of the lands. What has Australia, New Zealand, USA, Canada, done for it's indigenous people. Token gestures. We've pretty much said, Yep, that was crap. Sorry. Not giving the land back though.
What about the institutions that were involved? The outpouring of love with the Queens recent death clearly show she's not tarnished. Did we demand government reform? Nope. Maybe a half baked treaty; a referendum to say they count as people.
IRL, when a trusted institution does a bad thing, if it wasn't bad to us, and we don't think it will be bad to us, we tend to ignore it. Also, if we profit from the bad thing, it takes a special kind of person to push back.
For those worried Guernicus are biased towards the Latins, what do they do? If there is push back, how does it end? Diedne was arguably the strongest non-latin house and they fell. Even if Merinita and Bjornaer team up they will fall.
Sadly, i must agree. The Dreyfus affair in France was such a case. People refused to see him pardoned, even after evidence of his innocence came to light, to "protect the honour of the army". And that was just a century ago. In 1220, there would be massive pushback to have it all swept unnder the rug, and even if there was evidence many would simply ignore it because it might affect their self image as members of the OoH, which it is easier to idealise.
Yeah, that's more or less how I play it for now.
There was big speaches about the Diedne House being reinstated but after that it's just a few surivors with almost no way to recreate a house powerfull enough to have any importance in the order.
... Unless my players get creatives
For most sagas it is the only way to play it. It is the only way of playing it that gives a stable backdrop for whatever other plots you want to develop.
If reinstating Diedne is a serious option, be it by pardon or by proving them innocent, it becomes a plot of epic scale and will inevitably shape the rest of the saga. Some sagas should explore such an avenue, but most sagas should steer well away therefrom.
I disagree on the concept that there would be no outrage on the actions of the Guernicus. The Schism war caused the death of several hundred Magi, both Latin and Non-Latin, and nearly cost the order its existence. The power of the Guernicus, while magical in essence, is mostly backed up by the trust the Order places in it. They are not the police in the traditional sense where they are armed with weapons and armor rarely afforded to the public, for magi are on equal standing as they all wield magic.
When that trust that gives them the authority fails, how are they supposed to govern properly? When Magi discover that the organization that holds itself to a great standard so it can exist properly has failed that credibility before, how can they be trusted from then on to act as peacekeepers? How many tribunal judgements and Guernicus investigations in the past 200 years or more are suspect now?
While it is certainly a theme of most games to touch or embrace the abysmal and bright aspects of our own reality, it is not a fantasy to believe that some people will see the injustices done as a travesty that has to be answered for. The difference is that the order is not a disaffected population subservient to a government order; It is a group of individuals on equal footing by all legal jurisdiction. They are not powerless to demand something be done. The order is not entirely latin anymore, either, and the notion of a "Latin Only" order certainly died down to an ember compared to its all encompassing conflagration when the Schism happened.
That said, we can agree to disagree on aspects of this discussion. I am not in the business of telling people their way of running things is right or wrong. That we discuss concepts of a fictional history with thoughtful activity is nice in and of itself.
As a side note, I believe what Loke described in his reply to me sounds like burying history, not moving on from it. Those are still ghosts that will return to haunt you.
I did not suggest that there be no outrage. I suggested that the outrage could well be quickly quelled and have no lasting impact.
Sure, but what would they demand? There is no rewinding 200 years to status quo. The Diedne is no more, and 13C magi have been brought up in a very different Order. You could strip Guernicus of their powers, but what would you put in their place? If you have no redesign, stripping them of power would be a vote for chaos, and a majority for chaos is not as plausible as one against the Guernicus.
Seriously, if the outrage gains momentum over time, what would they, in your mind, fight for?
Of course. I am not going to have an opinion as to what would happen. I think anything could plausibly happen. I do not care about what is probable. Plausible is enough to make a good story, and probable does not in itself make for a better story.
IRL, the catholic church has repeatedly been linked to dreadful stories, including, but not limited to, protecting paedophiles.
Yet, it is still there, still powerful, and this doesn't seem to have had much effect on believers. More importantly, this doesn't seem to have had much effect on people who benefit from the church. How many cardinals have resigned in protestation about #scandal?
And you could replace Church by a lot of organizations.
Our government has ministers linked to sexual assault stories, they benefit from the full support of our esteemed leader, without it having had a noticeable effect on his popularity or his support. Hell, at least one of these was comfortably elected recently, despite admitting the barebones fact (like "I did sleep with that woman and asked for her to benefit from ###, but this wasn't a trade-of")
To link to another disturbing real-life thread, we can see people, having forgotten the past, turning again to authoritarian, even fascist, leaders. So maybe younger magi, raised in a more latin environment, would think that House Guernicus was right to cleanse the order of these barbarian diedne.
So yes, while this would make some noise and some magi would be infuriated, I don't think this would necessarily change things much: Older magi, who are closest to the event, are the most entrenched in existing power structures, and for younger magi, this is old news (and thus "not real") anyway.
One-off extreme circumstances are difficult to determine the correct response.
For instance, Ford pardoned Nixon in an attempt to forestall civil unrest and maintain a peaceful union of states and people. It seemed the best idea at the time, but now years and decades later I have heard there is a suggestion it may have introduced subtle but pernicious problems.
Or if you want a more widespread issue, after Pearl Harbour bombing (which due to snafus, occurred before the official declaration of War was announced), all US citizens of Japanese descent were rounded up and put in concentration camps. But those of German descent were not, in the wake of the declaration of War against Nazi Germany.
I see that as a very common approach. For me it just don't feel enough because while canon leaves what was up with House Diedne pretty much for the SG to model, it gives some facts and between those there are two things I think should be part of any major plots regarding sagas with a Diedne theme.
Lewellyn's curse. I don't want to miss that. I don't want some fresh peaceful apprentices trying to be accepted into the order nor even justice of past wrongdoings to be made. For an epic House Diedne, I need revenge. Full-scale, Europe-wide, world-shattering revenge.
The fact that Guernicus and Diedne were pretty close to each other. In the involvement of House Guernicus, I would need something deeper than the usual betrayal history, but something that connects with that friendship. I hadn't figured out anything yet anyway.
One question in this would be what they are proven innocent of.
They faced accusations of diabolism and there is also the Tremere perspective that they believed them to be committing human sacrifice. If they were not diabolists but were sacrificing humans (volunteers or captives?) in ancient pre-christian rites this would have a very different impact than if they simply executed a few covenfolk for what they saw as capitol crimes but were completely innocent of either.
In any case I expect the greatest impact would be finger pointing about who was most to blame or did the most wrong- Guernicus could easily claim they did what they did to stop the war and that it was Tremere's fault for starting the war in the first place, while Tremere can frame the situation that they had a rivalry and raised questions but it was Guernicus who decided to march an entire house and then use human sacrifice to destroy that house. Some people who lost their parens to the Schism war will likely be upset and might claim deprivation of magical power or declare wizard wars themselves based on those grudges and whom they decide to blame, which ultimately would simply thin out the older more leadership positions in the order and might give younger magi a chance to become more involved in politics.
I just find it extremely implausible enough evidence can be found to prove them innocent at this point. Finding old documents that point that certain Guernicus thought the evidence wasn't that convincing, plausibly. Reconstructing their mysteries (if it can at all be done) might be a way to demonstrate false perception of some of their customs, as could some age old documents sealed in Magvillus vaults exist. But there is no way the House as a whole can be cleaned of all accusations as a lot of evidence was simply destroyed or would take decades to reconstruct with very advanced magics, short of several testimonies from key players of that age in House Guernicus and Tremere along the lines of "yeah, actually we framed them", something which probably will never occur, since Tremere takes very solid steps to prevent the ghosts of their magi being contacted and house Guernicus purged a lot of records, so while I find it plausible junior members of the House had doubts at some point, the leadership at the top who made that move should have been smart enough to cover their tracks. Even the tribunal records were destroyed... so how do you clean their name when the new generation doesn't even know for sure what they were accused of? Tough story.
This isn't to say "don't tell that story", go ahead if you want to do it, however you kind of have to rewrite a lot of the background to make it plausible that the Diedne end up being cleared of whatever happened back then. Dropping the overt condemnation of Diedne Magic might not require going to the full extent of proving their innocence, however. After all, most magi who waged the war are dead, even if some of their Filii are in positions of power now, they won't be arround forever, and at some point, the new generations might not care anymore. Telling the story of a magi with Diedne Magic's dark secret being uncovered, and then he's cleaned at the tribunal given a history of helping the order... why not.
In my version, Tremere and Tytalus mages forged the evidence and a lead Guernicus discovered it almost at the end of the war and decided to be silent in fear that the information of the Diedne House being almost destroyed based on a scheme would destroy the order.
But I want this story to be more about a war between houses.
For instance, the Players group who found the proof of the scheme had a Tremere Quaesitor and a Tytalus in it.
The Tremere has a high sense of Justice and decided it was more important to have the truth out than to protect his house and the Tytalus was hoping to create strife in the order.
That is very true, when we get caught up in the word Ā«proveĀ».
Convincing the Order that they were innocent is just about plausible. Not probable, even if it is true, but plausible.
But there are two distinct questions in play here.
Of what was the House guilty?
Of what was their magical practice guilty?
If the magical practice, as was claimed by some, is inherently infernal, any practitioner would be condemned, and as long as this is what the Order believes, none will be readmitted.
If however, the magical practice is just pagan mysteries, no more sinister than Bjornaer, and this is demonstrated beyond doubt, individual members resurfacing could conceivably be readmitted, even if their Hermetic ancestors were guilty of heinous crimes.
And proving the mysteries innocent is possible. Any secrecy would be waived, but quaesitores could be allowed to inspect all the initiation scripts and practitioners readmitted if there is no grounds for suspecting other sins. If that were to happen, Diedne would stand as no worse than Tytalus and Tremere, who were guilty and sundered, but were not universally condemned.
So yes, if the point is a complete acquittal, the story is extremely difficult to construct, but it hardly matters what the House did. The House is no more. However, acquitting and readmitting stray followers is a lot more plausible.
