And don't forget that Elder Runes only work with invested items. Not lesser enchantments, not charged items, certainly not spellcasting. So right here, any effect you invest with them costs a lot of vis. And more than one season of work (in fact, if you count the time to earn that vis, you are looking at three to four seasons for a major effect. Well, unless vis is basically free in your saga).
Plus, they raise the levels of the effects in invested items that use them by 5 per rune. Effects that are way above the spell they mimic to begin with if you want more than one use per day. More vis cost, and if you want to invest the effect in one season, that means your Arts need to be at least 10 or the runes are actually slowing you down.
I'm playing a Verditius right now with Elder Runes and a minor focus. I've used Elder Runes in a grand total of three invested items, and two of them don't have an effect over level 40 (but it sure helped me invest them with effects with Forms I am not good at by doubling the Techniques I'm good at). The last is my talisman, and I certainly put some powerful effects in it. But not that many, because there's only room for so many. And the other magi can match them with their best spells, granted those spells are rituals. After all, how often do you actually use a level 75 effect anyway ?
Elder runes are overrated. They ARE good, yes sure they are, but the power you gain, you pay plentiful for in time and/or cost.
I rather think its one of the better balanced ones.
I think the biggest limit on any real ultimate power quest is time. A lot of mystery virtues just give more things to spend your time on (I'm looking at you Verditius). I don't know how many grand plans I've heard that translate into hundreds of seasons. Learning Cult Lore and other abilities, gathering vis and materials, doing the actual initiations.Then once you learn the cool new ability half the time it's back to the lab to design effects that make use of it.
The last saga that I was in there where three mages that had anything to do with mystery cults. My Verditus got Items of virtue and Stopped instead focusing on original research into rune magic. The Merinita never got around to partially becoming a fay I think she got killed first. The Bjornaer didn't do much except pursue his mystery Initiations and barely spent any time in the lab.
The real mysteries you have to watch out for are the ones that save your character a ton of time or broaden the scope of their specific abilities. Glamor magic is in that category. It can turn a Imagenem specialist into an all around swiss army knife. Plus it has a couple of huge special effects. Their are other one like that but it's a good example.
I have seen that as well. Only that we do not use mystery cuts much, but the "I need this 400 spell levels, those 67 arts at score 19 and 15 massive magic items to set my GRAND plan in motion. AND THEN I WILL CONTROL THE UNIVERSE!" thingy has happened a lot around here as well Most of the time it does not come to fruition, but it is FUN trying to make it happen
Funnily enough, they do no permit infinite improvement though, since you have to bind new XPs in your Talisman, which has finite space.
Eventually it will take more spaces to increase an art than the art increase allows for further spaces, and you will be stuck.
They also tend to be end goals, rather than middle of saga things.
Few Daimons ahve powers that truely cannot be dublicated with Hermetic magic, and since you have to penetrate, exceed might and accumulate points, I have yet to see it break any game. In general, it appears to be "barely worth it".
Spell spirits ... are only of specialised use, IME
certainly but generally isn't.
this one's a biggie!
ANother biggie, though probably less of one than the unlimited ACs above
Synthemata are powerful, but often hard to aquire.
They have game breaking potential though.
When you become immortal, your talisman gets infinite capacity. It's in the errata.
I think that synthemata despite the game breaking sound of them don't really change the dinamic of the game. With synthemata you can, with some effort, develop the ability to easily penetrate the magic resistance of a particular target. But with the same amount of effort as initiating synthemata you could develop a healthy penetration score and, with some effort, construct a fixed arcane connection and some sympathetic connections that allow you to easily penetrate the magic resistance of a particular target.
I suppose if I was going for my Kung Fu allegory, a Real Ultimate Power mystery would be one that gave you an Impervious Parma. Doesnt matter what your penetration is, the Parma score is infinite. The opposing mystery would be a virtue that lets you ignore Impervious Parma, Jade Demon Fist- Style.
A lot of the mysteries depend on the character involved. One mystery isn't always the best for everyone. IE: Names of Power in your Talisman can be very powerful, especially if your MT is very high. If your MT isn't high, its limited..
Virtues/Mysteries etc that double your arts: Nobody mentioned Diedne magic and Cthonic magic. One of our magi has both. He can spont Leap of Homecoming without using Cthonic magic...
Elder Runes: Eirk is well known for his dislike of the various item creation rules , but I do "agree" with one thing: Elder Runes should be a Major. ER has a large focus (Major magical-major virtue) and doubles most (all with tweeks or Rune magic) arts (like Diedne magic-Major). Having said that though, what I said above still applies: One mystery isn't always the best for everyone. Depending on the saga, MT and Philosophy may be hard to come by, Vis may be limited, and art advancement may be very slow... these will severely limit the power of ER.
On the other hand, it can be....awesome as well... (No Erik, I haven't forgotten ) Some of the things I've made are
That's not much of an overstatement. Everyone asks when I'm coming out of the lab...
You might want to recheck that.... Last paragraph...
Correct. Consider: A suit of armor made from Priceless gems: Serf's Parma, but that's like eighty (80) pawns of vis to open.... With ER you can open this with a MT 10 and Phil 8... or a MT of forty (40).
Items that don't have the room to fit what you can put in (ER do not apply here), require a different mystery.... Item attunement.
No matter how strong your Parma is, it won't save you from a brick in the face. It's funny how often magi forget that.
/threadjack
But serious side note, I think looking for Real Ultimate Power is not what the Mysteries are supposed to be. They're Mysteries in the sense that they are paths to an enlightenment or an insight, a different way of viewing the world. Real Ultimate Power makes stories boring because there are no challenges. I see mysteries as a method to show the progression of a particular mystic philosophy, not a kata of kung-fu forms for crushing one's foes.
Agreed. That is the beauty of it. If you come searching for power, just use core book RAW and blast the dragon of the pyrenees (might 75) into oblivion in one season or 2 of lab work massing up penetration with a 1-year duration magic item. Bring a minstrel or 2 with you when you do so and you will enter the legends. IIRC (by time period) you could even bring Chretien de Troyes, make the item into a sword, come armored as a knight and find yourself a place in the Arthurian cycle. :mrgreen:
You do not need a mystery to be the ultra-mega-powerful magician of the Age. Even if you are not you can appear to be so to casual observers. A dude that diud that would become MUCH more of a legend than Philipus Niger, no matter who is more powerful.
Well, not quite seriously, real ultimate power in Ars Magica is God, so Holy Magic is the best. It is not even a Mystery, so you don't have to take a flaw when you get it. Hopefully you knew you wanted to do this when you built your character and so took two levels of Quiet Magic and Subtle Magic. Also, it does impose some strong limitations on behavior. But if you are willing to walk the talk...
One season to prepare the invested item, a second season of Lab Total 99 to instil a level 90 effect. That's no easy task and you will need a good AC to boost penetration enough to affect that dragon.
WAG, I could have said 77 and 70. I assumed lvl75 spell with {8 = 16*AC = 80 penetration} and 3 for utilities. Or maybe lvl40 with {40 = 80 penetration} and 10 for utilities or whatever Xavi was thinking (or not thinking).
I did a broad brush post. No hard numbers used. THe results talked here have been brough forward dozens of time in this forum. It is perfectly possible for someone 10-15 years out of apprenticeship (an hermetic teenager) to achieve those results with enough dedication. And here is where the setting fails for me if you press it too much. From what I have seen, most people does not minmax so much, but it is possible to get that.
It becomes much harder to do this if you remove or significantly tone down effect expiry however (perhaps give a bonus to effective lab score of +10/+5/+2 rather than a multiplier of that amoount).
Most of the time it does not come to fruition, but it is FUN trying to make it happen 
, but I do "agree" with one thing: Elder Runes should be a Major. ER has a large focus (Major magical-major virtue) and doubles most (all with tweeks or Rune magic) arts (like Diedne magic-Major). Having said that though, what I said above still applies: One mystery isn't always the best for everyone. Depending on the saga, MT and Philosophy may be hard to come by, Vis may be limited, and art advancement may be very slow... these will severely limit the power of ER.
) Some of the things I've made are 