In our saga the LR specialist, a CrCo magus with an mMF in Aging, has offered to create LRs for others at the cost of 3 pawns of vis (the same amount we receive when we perform a season of service for the covenant) and one season of help at a later date and my maga felt it was a fair, perhaps low, cost to pay for around double LR lab total she could have mustered herself. To be fair I think it was a much lower cost than I think he would have charged for magi from another covenant, at least in Vis. I also think a season of future help is a more onerous cost if you don't live at the same covenant because travel times may he involved when that service is called upon.
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Possible, but there are several questions that have to be answered,
- Who commits five seasons to the study of a single ability?
- How large is the target group? By canon there are only about a hundred magi per tribunal, and most of them will be either too advanced, or too inexperience, or focused on something else. Long distance travel is possible, but not very attractive unless you teleport.
- How many of the potential students can offer a service that you actually want?
Obviously, I am influenced by 3ed, when the Order was a lot more insular than it has become in 5ed, but still, the Order is so small and thinly spread that the economy of scale is missing. What you propose is possible, but I think it is far from trivial to organise within a reasonable timespan when someone, be it student or teacher, thinks of it.
As a player, I do not find it very attractive. Five seasons is too much to invest in Parma Magica in the foreseeable future. Most covenants has too much read for great and immediate benefit. Parma Magica makes adventures a lot safer, but if that's your forte, you may not have any skills to achieve anything, and it is certainly not fun as a player to only excel at passive defence.
I might think differently in a fast paced saga though.
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TBF, Parma would likely be of interest to a magus focused on being Certamen duelist, not your magus or even most magi but more than just useful for passive defense. In fact that makes me think of a good way to practice a few Arcane Abilities, perhaps for the slightly higher return of 5xp due to more direct feedback as you are practicing, by having two magi practice Certamen together all season two people could practice Parma, Finesse, or Penetration and the two parties would not need to practice the same Ability.
Hi,
I imagine that some Ex Misc traditions teach Parma extensively, and even (especially) teach it to their apprentices, ignoring common practice in the Order. After all, many of them primarily joined to have access to PM.
Anyway,
Ken
Someone who knows he'll need to improve considerably in the next couple of years, and has the opportunity to do so all at a single time. Besides, that part was inessential to the argument. The instructor might provide just 2 seasons of teaching, and require something "worth" a half-season of service in return. Perhaps he provides the instruction to two magi of the same covenant, and asks a single season from one of the two, leaving them the choice. Perhaps it's just a coin toss: heads you spend no time, tails you spend a whole season.
Some Tribunals are larger; and while going from the Levant to Hibernia is certainly a long trip, a class in Stonehenge is relatively easy to attend to for magi in Loch Leglean, Normandy, and Hibernia. As for long-distance travel, teleportation is certainly a possibility, but there are many others. Mercere portals are one, unless you consider that teleportation. Flight is another, perhaps via shapeshifting (a migrating swallow covers roughly 200 miles/day, so over a week that's a lot of ground), or Rego-powered movement. If the destination covenant is on a water route, even a simple sailboat aided by a little weather magic can easily cover 200+ miles/day.
This is a valid point, if you assume most magi already have everything they want, and all their time is spent on personal projects that involve no-one else. But otherwise possibilities are endless. Oh, a Corpus specialist? Help me (or someone else who has something I want) with a longevity ritual. A Verditius? Can you open that diamond dagger for enchantment for me? No useful skills at all?!? Well, part of our deal with the Faerie Queen is that a magus should attend her for a year every seven ... no, not an apprentice, but anyone fresh out of gauntlet would do. Talking of apprentices, are you saying you have just found a pair of Gifted twins? Etc.
There are many, many possibilities. Not all involve time spent. But I was trying to say that it's easier to think and talk about time: if you teach to others well, you are saving them time, and they can spend their time - directly or indirectly - to repay you. It's then much easier to get a sense of whether the whole arrangement creates net value if you think in abstract time terms than in vis, because different sagas will value vis very differently.
Well, canonically the Order has a complex and sophisticated market for books, supported by the Redcap network (Covenants, p.94). Why not for "classes", in the style of universities? They need not take place immediately. But a magus might easily disseminate word during 1220 that he's interested in teaching to students in the fall and winter of 1224, and he'll do so at the Covenant of X if by the summer 1221 he receives enough expressions of interest.
Actually, that's a pretty neat idea for a Covenant: provide hospitality and nice accomodations and great labs for teaching, ensure you are super-easy to reach from the majority of the Order, and become a hub where advanced magi come to teach and learn from others.
As I said, five was simply to round things. You may want to spend only ... 3? I mean, if your Parma is 5 and you want a 6, that's probably some 3 seasons reading tractatus, plus possibly the cost in time or vis or favours or whatever to secure those tractatus. Surely spending 2 seasons to be brought up to 6(2), plus the equivalent of half a season working safely for someone sounds a good deal, doesn't it?
You could argue that no magus wants Parma above 5, but I do not think I'd buy that argument. I absolutely do agree that a magus 10-20 years out of gauntlet in a struggling spring covenant probably does not care about raising Parma above 5.
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Parma Magica is one of those skills I rarely neglect on a magi, unless I'm playing a Bonisagus who never comes out of his lab (or a variant of the trope).
Temprobe, how do the sagas in your games usually handle learning higher levels of Parma? Books? Available teachers? Or, mostly, Practice and exposure?
We do have book on Parma Magica. That being said, adventure is a pretty good excuse to raise Parma Magica as well.
Lvgreen-- My tumblweed ridden memory palace says it was 4th edition in the Alps Tribunal. The magus was an amaranth addict whose drug of choice boosted parma. He specialized in burglarizing sanctums after final twilight on behalf of the legitimate heirs. (So basically a friendly meth head down the street who you hire to do odd jobs because he feels no pain.)
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Maybe not, but it still points to the flaw of the argument. Every efficient market depends on currency, such as a vis economy in this case. While the barter economy that you suggest is possible, the infinite range of possible arrangements make the bargain complex, and consequently hard to arrange. You need to find all the students, you need to find what each and every one can provide, and you need to find a way to make that useful to the teacher, and finally everything needs to be coordinated in time and space. Possible, but difficult.
It becomes a lot more realistic with the vis economy, because it decouples the supply of teaching from whatever the students supply to earn the vis. This severely reduces the complexity of each bargain.
I can see your barter arrangement work within a covenant, where a handful of magi have time to discuss options for some time, and can complete the exchange without neglecting domestic duties and interests. But that will rarely make a class of nine. For any larger scale, I would rely on the vis economy.
For the international market, it does not take a very long travel before it ruins a season. Crossing a single tribunal may well take weeks on foot, particularly in foul weather. Mature magi can get around this, I agree, with flight or teleportation, within adjacent tribunals, but younger magi will often depend on mundane travel. Long-distance travel remains difficult, unless you have a liberal network of Mercere Portals. I made the calculations for an eagle from Thebes attending the Gathering at Crintera, and found that it took all season, erring on the optimistic side.
True, but fewer interchanges are needed to trade a book, and if the trade does not go through, all you have wasted is a mundane scribe's time. You can announce a class three years ahead, but if you do get enough students, do you still go through with it? If you don't, do you have time to give due notice of the cancellation? If cancellations become commonplace, will students still bother to sign up? If undersubscribed classes become commonplace, will teachers still bother?
The fact that it works for books does not mean that it will work for classes.
I might, but I won't. I am sure some do, and some of those who do will want to make an effort in the given timeframe, but
- there are those who do not care, maybe because they do not leave their lab for instance,
- there are those who would want it, but go for lower-hanging fruits first,
- there are those who want it, but are still so far off that they have simpler ways to advance first
- there are those who already have it
The remaining group, the actual market, exists but it may not be very large. It may or may not sustain the effort of teaching.
I have evidently failed to make my point. My point is not what magi are trading in exchange for a season of teaching. My point is that since with a season of teaching magi are essentially buying time, it's easier for you and I to see if the net gain is positive by assuming they pay back the teacher in kind -- thus comparing apples to apples. Sure, they can pay the teacher in US dollars, but that makes it harder to see if the overall balance is positive, because it's hard to price magus seasons in US dollars.
The catch is that it takes relatively little to provide passage to a prearranged location by a senior magus. Learn a D:Moon spell that makes, say, a tub fly as fast as the wind (40mph), and a MuVi spell to give control of it to a trusted grog. Then at the beginning of the last week of the season before the class, send out grogs riding tubs to your students, and have them return no more than a week into the class season. This counts as a 7-day distraction for the student during the season you are instructing them, so it causes no harm. And you can easily fetch students over six thousand miles away, twice the distance between London and Jerusalem.
Also, crucially, most of your students will be somewhat senior themselves. That's because very junior students can just learn from a higher Quality Summa... plus their time is not nearly worth as much. It's once you start entering Tractatus territory that it starts to really pay off.
Again, this probably goes back to how insular the Order is; but I already stated that this entire teaching economy assumes a fairly non-insular Order.
Of course in general that's true.
But the point is that canonically magi in the Order have a complex Mythic-Europe-wide communication network and are used to making deals on it. This allows the organization of classes (note that something very similar in 1220 was already taking place at mundane learning institutioms) as follows.
In spring 1220, you send out word that you will give a class on a certain subject, at a certain place, and for a certain consideration in the spring of 1223, subject to enough interest being generated. Anyone interested should have a message delivered to you by the end of 1220, that will represent binding acceptance of the conditions, with confirmation being sent back from you no later than late summer 1221. Today we call it a 3-way handshake :), but it's protocol well known since antiquity.
First, what fraction of magi will eventually want to go from Parma 5 to 6 during their lifetime? I claim at least one out of four (25%), based on the arguments above, though admittedly this is somewhat eyeballed. If you agree with that, let's run some rough numbers. There are some 1200 magi in the Order (if I recall correctly!) with a population that appears stable or slightly growing, and with an average post-gauntlet lifespan of some 120 years. This means that every decade 100 magi exit the Order's populatiom, and among them at least 25 who had Parma 6+. To maintain the equilibrium, in that decade at least 25 will need to learn Parma from 5 to 6. That's your market. Small, but enough to sustain two or three "two season" classes at that level. Of course, there are a few who'll want to learn Parma 7 too etc.
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There are about 1000 magi who can, potentially, leak the secret of Parma. I donât think a handful of books makes that much of a difference. I'd expect books on Parma to be rare, since all magi are taught how it is paramount to the safety of the Order and most would avoid to write in case the notes are lost, just as most magi avoid anything that can be remotely associated with diabolism⌠but not outrageously rare.
Indeed, I would expect books on Parma to be more common than diabolism (and wouldnât have the same negative repercussions).
Away from my books, but that should be Sebastian, a 4th ed Tytalus from the Alps. You will find him in Sanctuary of Ice. One of my favorite concepts (but then, I love all Tytali).
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Right, but that's not the point we disagree about. The question is if we have the critical mass to make it happen in the first place.
The protocol is easy enough to see, but you are very optimistic about mail efficiency, with half a year delivery times long distance. I would not assume that redcaps visit every covenant more than twice a year, and then you have half a year plus the actual travel time. Not every tribunal has Mercere Portals, which makes the travel time long too. And most magi, I would think, would take the time between two redcap visits to make up their mind.
Sure, you can make the lead time five or six or seven years, but the longer it is, the fewer magi be prepared to commit. If you assume a potential market of 25 in a decade, you need to subtract
- Those with insufficient redcap coverage (some are not visited at all).
- Those who will not wait, and find other sources of learning for that reason.
- Those who think a week in a flying bathtub is too uncomfortable to be worth it.
- Those unable to commit ahead of time.
- Those who would prefer to learn from field experience anyway.
- The Thebans who need classes in Greek.
- Those who find it a wee bit demeaning to sit down on the school bench late in life.
- Those who find taught classes too boring to sustain.
So I can believe in 25 as a sort of potential even if I think 25% is optimistic, but the actual, realistic number is much lower than the potential. Even if some of my items above are flimsy excuses, even just one magus who makes it would make a dent in your 25. It does not take a lot of bad luck before you don't reach your target nine.
So yes, all you say is possible, but you make optimistic assumptions on every turn and discount the challenges. That is ok if you want to design the setting to sustain a particular kind of story, but the alternative is at least as plausible.
I am assuming the Virtues "Affinity with Parma Magica" and "Puissant Parma Magica" are allowed to exist in most people's campaigns?
Maybe in House Bonisagus, and maybe House Tremere for the resistance boost in Certamen.
side note - one of my players wanted to start the campaign with his freshly Gauntletted mage having a Parma score > 1, and I hinted that if he took the right Virtues this could happen. (I had no problems with a Strong Parens teaching with a Source Quality of 10, or even up to 14 points in Parma Magica in the learning Season, to take advantage of Affinity)
I am looking at the cost/benefit situation.
- Mage practicing Diabolism - Is a dirty filthy oathbreaker, but they are doing it for rewards provided by Diabolism.
- Mage teaching Parma Magica to outsiders - Is a dirty filthy oathbreaker, what reward is worth this?
- Book on Parma Magica - Can be lost, stolen, or copied by a 'mundane' librarian. Book provides no resistance to teaching others (unless there is a secret key)
Odd thought: Can a scribing copy error be responsible for the Flaw Flawed Parma Magica?
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I like this idea...
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Teach Parma Magica to the Court Wizards of the Holy Roman Empire and obtain Holy Roman Benefits in return? I am sure some Jerbiton's would consider this just for the sake of friendship.
Good point. It makes me realise how much I dislike the secret trigger idea of 5ed canon. It feels like a desperate attempt to make the xp at chargen to add up, and I do not find it very plausible. And as you put it here, it just trashes the amazing story potential of parma books. If there is one thing I would want to change in 6ed ...
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How was it in previous editions? And, I think lvgreen was thinking on a secret key to te whole text, not on keeping the "secret key" mentioned under the Parma Magica ability outside the text?
We could also rule that initial instruction on Parma, just as supernatural abilities, must come either from training or teaching (and therefore there is no problem with circulating books on Parma). This also destroys (well, at least diminishes) the potential these books have for stories... But of course, no one worries about the story potential of an Ignem Summa.
Left undefined AFAIK; that is, Parma Magica would be the last thing learnt, but how the apprentice could go from not knowing to knowing upon swearing the Oath was never answered.
You mean an encrypted text? That would severely reduce the quality IMNHO, simply because it would make reading cumbersome and slow.
Yes, the âsecret keyâ idea is not a code, it is a final part of the ritual that no one talks about or writes about and without it the Parma does not work. How a magus keeps this a secret from their apprentice for 15 years, I donât know but that is the effect, one needs to be taught the final piece and a Parma of 0(4) does nothing. In Apprentices it is proposed as a way to have the apprentice learn over 5 season, 1xp from exposure each season and they get it in the last. This is what George means by it seeming like a way to make the xp work by the rules.