Well, what I gave was ample time in the Middle Ages with plain, mundane transportation. Let's say the local redcaps make two round trips of the Tribunal every year. Then all you need is to:
a) send a message to a Mercer House in each Tribunal. By mundane means (put a grog on a ship...), it will take you at most a few months, let's say a season. By fairly cheap magical means, the time is measured in days or even hours.
b) have the Redcaps do two rounds over a year, so almost every magus gets the message and can think about it.
c) collect the information as per a), and send out confirmations (or "no show" messages) again as per b).
d) allow magi some extra time (2 seasons?) to avoid last-minute arrangements.
So ok, if you plan to give a class, start with a) three years in advance.
For Parma 5 to 6. But there's also a market for Parma 6 to 7 (another ... 15-18 students?), and perhaps 7 to 8 (another ... 7-10?) etc. You can teach to students of different starting scores simultaneously. So maybe the potential market is 50+ students every decade.
Yes. Basically, they are all about a) inconvenience of travel and b) not being happy to plan a class a few years in advance. For a), I think it's greatly overstated except for a small fraction of truly remote places. For b) I can compare with the modern attendance to, say Master degrees. People happily plan one or two years in advance, even in a much more fast-paced world.
It does!
I agree it is plausible that such a system might no be in place, but not really for the reasons you cite. Instead, I'd say it's because:
a) in most human organizations the fact that something could be done efficiently and profitably does not imply that it gets done -- at all. In fact, the Order is rife with inefficiencies (e.g. the great library at Durenmar).
b) there may be a lot of suspicion/mistrust between magi not belonging to the same covenant. Something like this was very likely a big no-no in the wake of the Schism. So yes, the assumptions are very saga-dependent.
If, like other abilities that are only teachable to Gifted students, Parma required a person to be opened to the mystery first, it would totally change the threat of books concerning Parma. It would also make it so a gifted person watching someone raise their Parma couldnāt replicate it. It would require a specific act on the part of the teacher to improperly spread the Parma. But, in RAW, that isnāt how Parma Magica is described.
Was there a typo in your original message? Yes, you gave three years total, but you completed the handshake in 1Ā½ ... What you say now I would read as three years just to make the three-way handshake, which I find a lot more reasonable.
It is an interesting comparison. It does not compare well to the efficient xp justification used earlier, but as a life-time experience and educational journey, it does. Very few people would go overseas just to do some class; it is part of a much bigger parcel of foreign culture, network, and the degree. I can imagine the magus touring Mythic Europe to see the great sites, meet famous magi, visit great libraries, see legendary faerie forests, and maybe take a class. In such a case the travel itself will take up a significant part of the time, but it will also be part of the reward. This I find a lot more plausible and appealing
If you go only to take a class, travel becomes a chore unless you have access to convenient teleportation. If you travel slowly and mundanely, you spend an extra season or two, and you break the efficiency motivation. Flying high-speed on a broomstick or magic carpet or bathtub is not going to be comfortable, and anyone but the most cynical xp hunters would ask themselves if it really is worth it.
And you forgot the magi who simply do not want to take classes because they do not enjoy lectures. Once you reach Parma Magica 5, you are old enough to need no other reason to abscond.
Indeed. And there are two very important reasons for this. The first one is called life; efficiency and profitability is not, generally, what makes a happy life. The second is the bootstrap problem; most people take some time getting used to an idea before they act on it, and until there is a culture for taking classes, it remains an alien and unappealing thought.
And this is really what's behind all those flimsy excuses I suggested too. You made an argument in terms of xp and time to achievement, but you forgot to ask what makes a good life for the magus.
I completely disagree A lot of people who leave their home to get a specialized education (say, a degree in mathematics, or training from a famous craftsman) will do it because they can't find education of that quality at home. The proof is that they'll often travel to very lame places if the education there is good; and conversely, almost no-one who has access to an excellent education locally will choose a poorer one elsewhere.
Again, no, that's a myth. I already gave you plenty of examples of how you can travel very far in 10 days without teleportation, and that's enough to make no dent on your education. For example, if you travel by sea, a good breeze pushing your small ship or comfortable boat at some ... 10 (land) miles per hour is not that hard to conjure, and will allow you to travel 2400 miles in 10 days. And again, note that we are talking of magi of some seniority here - very junior ones can more profitably learn from Summas.
Magical flight is only one option, but it can easily be made far more comfortable than modern flight-by-plane. Given how much scholars fly around to hang around other scholars, I do not find your claim well-substantiated.
Actually, I did not. I said that there might be cultural issues involved, so magi might not choose the best learning experience just because. But I think the idea vaguely suggested, though not made explicit, by your sentence. When you travel to someone to be "taught" you are not necessarily getting "lectures"; and from my experience, the more senior a student is the humbler he gets about getting advice from others provably more knowledgeable than him - not the other way round.
Maybe that lot exists too, but the lot I meet, if they mention the quality of the degree at all, mention other important reasons as well, be it learning foreign languages, warmer weather, or whatever.
Sure, but you need to add a couple of days to/from port on either side, and suddenly you have to halve that distance, and your action radius only covers a few tribunals.
Yes, there are many ways to do it, and a senior magus with an interest in long-distance travel can solve every problem.
I am not sure what this imples. Knowledge tends to be very hard to prove, so I am not sure you could every find a teacher provably more knowledgeable. Anyway, that was not what I intended to suggest. To learn from presumably more knowledgeable people, I would prefer joint work over teaching, both because I find it more effective and because I find it more enjoyable. The suggested class of nine is also too large for pleasure in my mind. And this is just examples of why individual preferences make it hard to make up a class of nine from a potential target group of 25. And this is increasingly relevant with the seniority of the students. More advanced learners need more freedom to learn, and large classes are counter-productive for that freedom.
It seems our understanding of knowledge, education etc. is profoundly different. In fact, it was enlightening for me to see that stuff I consider "commonly accepted" (and I've always seen considered as such) actually is not.
But case in hand: it's very clear in game who is more knowledgeable in Parma Magica, or if two magi are roughly as knowledgeable (same score, possibly different xp).
I think the point of disagreement here is that what I called for convenience a "class" should not be thought of as a series of seminars by a lecturer. Nothing of the sort is implied in the description of Teaching. A high Teaching score is about knowing how much freedom to provide to the student, how to foster collaborative work, how to get the perfect refreshments etc.
Sure, and that can be used to predict player behaviour. I do not usually use it to motivate NPC behaviour, though, and hence it does not say anything about plausible developments and inventions in the Order as a whole.
It isn't, since whatever the class is, there will be some magi who simply do not like it, and choose to do something they enjoy more, in spite of the xp. You are right that a better teacher may make the class more pleasant to a wider range, but the larger the class is, the harder this will be too. More senior students are likely to be harder to accommodate too, because of a wider range of backgrounds.
The point here is that the Ā«this is a good dealĀ» argument only works for players maximising xp. With real people, you cannot please everyone, and you simply lose a sizeable chunk of your potential, and they don't even need a good reason.
I think an argument this is PC optimisation and doesn't make sense in world is flawed.
The magi spend most seasons early on reading summae for XP, then later reading tractatus on their pet subject.
We already have magi being unsociable in general, due to the gift penalty. Considering the monomaniacal focus on study or lab work every season, think of the quote "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy". The order should have "The Shining" type snaps by magi regularly.
I myself only spent 3 years at uni, however, I am confident we have people here with multiple degrees, and post grad qualifications. I doubt any of them, after studying 10+ years were feeling joy about the idea of another year studying. That's the 40th tractatus.
Anything to break up the monotony of another tractatus read, doing any lab activity that is in the magi's pet field, seems something magi would embrace.
Are you sure? For many real people a year of highly qualified work in the industry is not more appealing than another year of university life and study. Especially if the bettter money from the industry wouldn't motivate you.
I certainly agree that this is the classic stereotype. It was exactly what we were expecting when we picked up 3ed in the mid-nineties, but even before 4ed came out, we started to question (on the Berkeley list too, not only our troupe) if magi have to be that way, and if more Shining stories would be worth telling.
5ed canon gives us many other types; Flambeaux travel around for tournaments, Verditius meet up to brag about their inventions, BjornƦr roam the land in their heartbeast form, Tytali maintain mundane identities building mundane power, etc.
Honestly, by and large, I did, but you are certainly right that the monotony has to be broken, by switching subject, by teaching (apprentices), and by free study (from vis).
So if your point is that some magi behave like munchkin PCs, I do not object. The question is if these magi make up the numbers required.
Played many campaigns with different levels of access to Parma. Currently we play the most paranoid one where the peripheral code makes it a crime to not magically protect any written knowledge about the Parma. This has had the effect of virtually eliminating Tractatus about the subject and only mature Alliance's own a summae.
We're about 10 years into the game and all players still have Parma 1.0 except one who doesn't have access to spontaneous spell casting because Mercurian. He is nearing 3 in Parma with an affinity and being a bit hypocondriac.
In this context, I can see a wandering teacher making his living visiting convenants and offering his services but in our paradigm, only young magi would even consider the shame of being under tutelage again post gauntlet.
I don't see a teacher or in fact anyone ever complaining about having too much vis. In medieval times, it wasn't about how much you have, it is about how much you spend. Hence, it is not common mentality to hoard richesses. If you earn more you spend more...
Other campaigns saw PCs ending with 8+ Parma at around year 60-80 when Parma is less restricted.
A lot of people who leave their home to get a specialized education (say, a degree in mathematics, or training from a famous craftsman) will do it because they can't find education of that quality at home. The proof is that they'll often travel to very lame places if the education there is good; and conversely, almost no-one who has access to an excellent education locally will choose a poorer one elsewhere.