As always, the true defence of a covenant against other covenants seeking to destroy it is the Code, and Hermetic society as a whole. And if that fails, nothing can help you anyway.
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The Aegis is suggested as one of the pillars, along with the Parma, that prevents the Order from self-destructing.
Durenmar spends ridiculous amounts of vis to make a powerful Aegis. As mentioned by another poster, in the Schism war it states Diedne covenants with amazing Aegis were waited out. That suggests a strong Aegis is near-impenetrable.
The story of the Schism war suggests it was brewing for a while. Preparation including Aegis destroying spells, items that will be given to grogs, with no concern if they live or die, etc, would be part of the preparation.
An invisibility cloak made by a Verditus apprentice working in Durenmar's Aegis, yet an 80 year old arch mage casting failing seems thematically off.
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Where, and how, is that suggested?
Lots of things in the story of the Schism war would almost certainly not play out that way if actually played out with Ars Magica rules. That kind of multi-year war seems very unlikely, especially since the stories make it seem that most of the battles were fought outside any Aegis.
I was looking through how the Aegis worked in older editions
In 2e and 3e the Aegis didn't do squat against spells or effects invoked inside the Aegis. In 3e this was even explicitly spelled out.
In 4e spells cast inside the Aegis by magi who had not participated had penalties applied to Casting Totals and Penetration. Not a word about items.
2e and 3e prevented demons and faeries from entering the Aegis, if they weren't powerful enough.
4e added magical creatures to this, but explicitly said divine creatures weren't blocked.
So, if anything the Aegis of the Hearth protects against more things in 5e than it did in any previous editions of the game.
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In 2e a sufficiently powerful divine or infernal aura could block all supernatural effects from certain other realms from working inside the aura, but otherwise only affected rolls.
3e and 4e had an interesting rule for how auras interacted with certain creature powers and item effects:
- Power levels: This refers to powers that operate automat-
ically or at will (like those of faeries or some enchanted
items). The aura rating increases or decreases the level of
the power, which may also gain new effects (as chosen by
the storyguide) that suit the new level. If its level is
reduced to 0, the power cannot function.
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Your proposals are better now - and much more contrived. Even the more direct one with Laurent the Merchant's delivery service for the Covenant of the Blue mountain needs an extremely lucky trove found and then quickly apprised (in his portable lab nobody ever notices?) by a youngster magus who just needed that for his great deed:
Such contrivances are what SGs use for stuff they desperately need to happen - and not ways of validating a terrible challenge to the well-being of the Order overlooked for decades in the ArM5 design of the Aegis.
I stick with @IdiotSavant here:
Of course, if we admit that the Aegis and Parma have failed the order. That the simplest of contraptions can destroy the best guarded forts. That the weakest ennemies can lay all to rumbles then yes, all that remains is the mundane law and politics and God to save your soul.
Notice that in my two very short stories, you can remove the last part involving an hermetic agent and everybody still dies. The merchant can still have the torch from accident or from a vengeful grog level individual. The demon could have given the trinket to the grieving Grog.
Point was that the order has no defense vs item trinkets and the setting has not recognized this.
Laws should ban the creation of such items. Lesser traditions that make them destroyed. Every Item registered with the Order. Knowledge on how to create them restricted to maybe one house?
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The order does have some rules and regulations on selling to mundanes, and anyone caught violating them is punished.
One can't restrict creation of items that are within Hermetic Theory to one House. Any Hermetic Magus can create such items, and once added to Hermetic Theory, we have no way of preventing it from being used by others.
What we do have is the self judgement of Magi, who will realize that making such an item and letting it be sold or given to mundanes could come back to fire at them, not just for being put on trial, but also the mere fact that said mundane might then pass it to another, and it might be used against their own covenant., or an ally's. After all, once it passes from your hands, you can't control who it's used against.
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Where in the setting is this not recognized?
Consider rather the canonical destruction of Mistridge (F&F p18) as clear recognition that mundanes with magical weaponry are supposed to be able to destroy a covenant.
The Aegis of the Hearth is not a universal defense against magical attacks. It has never been claimed to be.
Even a totally mundane force can easily crush most covenants to rubble - just bring a few siege machines.
Considering how few hedge traditions are even able to make enchanted items, those do not constitute any kind of threat to the Order - no matter how much those few items can bypass an Aegis.
I think the problem is not with the setting, but that you have misunderstood how the setting is supposed to work.
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Every description of existing Alliance in all the books. Every Law pertaining to objects. Every welcoming customs to Alliances. Every process described to source provisions. Every case of Wizard's war where the Magi actually did the brunt of the work instead of spending a season to create a dozen charged items. Every dispute resolution where none mention threat of losing it all due to a trinket item.
Take for example the description of Magvillus, the Forteress of the order.
"The power of Magvillus’s Aegis of the Hearth ritual is a secret, but it is commonly thought to be around the tenth magnitude. In times of conflict it is rumored that an Aegis of fifteenth magnitude is available." & then, there is an excerpt about it's core weakness "The Imperfect Defense For the two hours prior to sunrise on Good Friday, a strong Divine aura envelops the entire Magvillus fortress and the Aegis of the Health is suppressed.... Although would-be attackers might win the battle if they attacked at this time... HoH:TL p.43
Then there is the description of what keeps the peace at tribunal: "Traditionally a Tribunal’s grounds are considered sacred, and violence of any sort is strictly forbidden. Some Tribunals cast an Aegis over the grounds with only the Quaesitors, Praeco and Hoplites joining the ritual." Same book p.60
Description of what typically happens in a wizard war: "This means a combatant in Wizard’s
War can often escape his adversary by hiding inside his covenant. Not only does he gain the protection of any Aegis of the Hearth the covenant may have, his sodales can deny his opponent entry to the covenant." If trinket items can destroy the alliance, I would not allow a magi in a wizard war onto my grounds... ever.
Even the Coenobium seems unaware that the Aegis does nothing to stop the activation of dangerous items: "The large warehouse that stores the Coenobium’s mundane wealth is likewise often referred to as the Factory, although similar smaller complexes are maintained by other merchant groups. Extending several levels below ground, the structure provides a maximum of storage without provoking mundane suspicion. The complex includes a heavily warded area within the established secondary Aegis to contain the more dangerous and exotic items and captive creatures that pass through the covenant’s hands. Only patrons are allowed to participate in the Aegis ritual for the Factory. The handful of tokens produced each year are closely controlled by the First Consul."
I'd agree. This is the closest we come to describe the order being defeated by items. Still described as 3 Magi, an army of Mundanes & Magical siege weapons were required to bring down the Hermetic stronghold. We now know, he just had to slip into the Aegis one PeTe arrow and it would have all crumbled down. "Tres had with him two other magi of the rusticani, his tradition, and a large number of mercenaries armed with magic weaponry of his own devising. The magical siege engines he brought with him demolished Mistridge, killing the defenders."
Description should have been: "Tres, offended by the hospitality given by Mistridge, declared a war on them and threw a rock on them, demolishing Mistridge, killing the defenders. He then wen't back to his friends and mercenaries and they laugh at how the rusticani are so much superior to the order."
Corebook p.69 sets the tone on what to expect from the Aegis.
"The spell Aegis of the Hearth (page 161) is one of the most important spells in the Order of Hermes. While Parma Magica gives individuals magic resistance, Aegis of the Hearth (often just “the Aegis”) gives it to a whole covenant. The number of Hermetic covenants with no Aegis at all can most likely be counted on the fingers of one hand, and most covenants want to have the strongest Aegis that they can manage. Thus, if none of the player characters start knowing the spell, you should include it in the covenant library, and make learning it a high priority for someone. Just make sure that you choose a level that a member of the covenant can learn and cast. Note that if the covenant includes magi who are older than the player characters, the player characters need not be able to cast it.
The list of Aegis being mentioned as the primary defence is endless... I wonder where we might pick-up the idea that it is the Orders finest defence?
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Do you think we can improve upon the Aegis by casting another effect on it to hide it? RtHK still needs to perceive the AotE in order to target it as it is not a container effect like Room/Structure/Boundary... I think. So hiding it using the PeVi guideline "Make something (including a magical item) seem non-magical to any Intellego spell of less than or equal to twice the (level + 2 magnitudes) of this spell." might be effective? so in times of war, you hide the Aegis? This way they need a way to perceive the Aegis by overcoming the "invisibility" spell or have an AC to the AotH & a design of RtHK which is range AC. I'd think that the only AC to the AotH are the participating Magi & active tokens (not a rock from the boundary). What do we think?
Removing the Hearth’s Keystone PeVi Gen R: Touch, D: Momentary, T: Individual
The caster dispels an Aegis of the Hearth effect. There is no other evidence that the Aegis is absent, but alert magi crossing the supposed boundary of the Aegis may notice that they do not feel the characteristic tingle which indicates the presence of an Aegis. The Aegis of the Hearth effect must be less than the level of the Removing the Keystone spell + 3 magnitudes + stress die. This spell must penetrate the Aegis of the Hearth effect, of course. Note that if the Aegis of the Hearth is of a high level, then this spell may need to be a ritual.
(Base effect, +1 Touch)
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Alliance? Do you by any chance mean covenant?
I think you overestimate how easy it is to get an enchanted item insde a guarded covenant and then activate it there. The very point of having a fortress is to make it difficult for enemies to enter it.
And even if you managed it, most covenants have many buildings, and such an item would likely only affect one of them.
Making enchanted items take time. Hardly something one does just for fun.
Attacking a covenant without having first declared Wizard's War on all the members of that covenant is serious breach of Hermetic law, and will have you hunted down by quaesitors and hoplites. Much better deterrent than any Aegis.
Nah, the Aegis main functionality is to keep out weak (Might 5-10) demons and faeries who could otherwise cause lots of trouble. Won't keep out the really powerful ones, but they are much rarer so unlikely to cause problems anyway.
You are hardly the first player, or game writer, to notice that there exist ways of getting around an Aegis. Yet, if it was so easy, why does it not happen more often?
For one thing, it might not be quite that easy.
But also, it is not often that anyone with the means to destroy a covenant also has the desire to do so, or think they can avoid punishment afterwards.
So in practice, it just isn't a problem for most covenants or for the Order in general.
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Yes. I tend to use the two terms interchangeably.
Possibly. At 1st glance it does not seem to be difficult. Arrows, items in crates, via a window, letter (non-red cap), Bird drops it from the sky, etc.
Proper items with high penetration and such sure. Time and Vis. Charged items, Natural Items, items from lesser traditions takes little to no time/ressources
Yes but as my examples have shown, even Quaesitors will be hard pressed to find anything and if it is as easy as it seems, Quaesitors would be overwhelmed with requests... Order might not even have survived!
Agreed that is the current use case for an Aegis. The point is it does not match with the case use of an Aegis found in all the literature.
Actually, in all my years of Ars, the Aegis was always a pillar that was hard to circumvent. We actually played, wrongly, that the Aegis did neutralise items same as everything else supernatural. Never did we even consider the Aegis to have an exception/fatal flaw vs items. Even seems ridiculous that somehow Items get away so easy vs the Aegis when discussing it with the Troupe. I suspect many played it the same way. Who wants to play the Saga of the Heroic Grog that got the item to touch the tower? Or the Mighty Bird that was commended to drop the pebble on the tower. Or the powerful rat that brought the pebble via the sewers of the Convenant?
In a real world, sure, almost never happens. You have the terrorist here and there that make the news but in Mythic Europe, we aim for the world to be filled with strife and excitement. Demons corrupt, Fey mettle, Divine Judge, Magic asserts itself & Mundane pull whatever levers they have. The goal is to never have a lack of desire & means & the players should be the ones doing the punishing!
Still there needs to be enough stability to justify the Order's existence in the 1st place. The Parma & Aegis are the named single effects that ensured the foundation of the Order. If items destroy irrespective of the Parma/Aegis as the Aegis protected Magi towers crumble to dust and kills everybody, the Origin story of the order is less believable.
W
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We have the Rego Vim Base 5 as below:
"Activate an enchanted device with a simple trigger (i.e., not a linked trigger or an environmental
trigger, see ArM5 page 99). The caster must know the triggering action for the target device either because he invested the enchantment himself, because he investigated the enchantment in the laboratory or because he has learned it in some other manner such as being shown the action by someone else who already knows it. The target item is activated directly by the Rego Vim spell; the normal trigger is not reproduced. [LoH p.107]"
Shall we create:
ReVi Base 5: Prevent the activation of an enchanted device with a simple trigger (i.e., not a linked trigger or an environmental trigger, see ArM5 page 99). The caster does not need to know the triggering action for the target device. The target item is disabled directly by the Rego Vim
spell rendering the normal trigger inoperable for the duration. Most alliances have this effect imposed on all cargo entering the convenant using a range Room and concentration maintained.
or use this one:
Revi Gen: Sustain or suppress a spell of a specific type cast by another with level less than the level +2 magnitudes of the Vim spell. Examples of specific types include Hermetic Terram magic and Shamanic spirit control magic [and curse magic]. [HoH:S p.129]
ReVi Gen +2: Suppress the enchantments imbued in objects. While the duration lasts, a magical object cannot activate it's powers as long as the power is of a level lower than the level +2 of this guideline.
This has me thinking that it is a bit strange that as per DE, Longevity rituals & The bonds of the Talisman & Familiar are momentarily suspended/dispelled by the AotE as they pass the boundary & then reform. Seems to me it is not far away from being able to suppress items...
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In several foreign versions of Ars Magica (at least the French, Italian, and Spanish ones) the word "Covenant", lacking a straightforward translation, has been rendered with a word whose closest English translation is "Alliance"!
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The aegis is like a wall protecting the covenant. Like any wall it can be breached with time and effort, and gives certain advantages to its defenders. It is never an absolute defense, but serves as a deterrent, and usually slows down or impairs enemy forces.
The only real issue I have with everything listed in the original post is the idea that an arrow fired from outside the aegis the could bypass the defenses by triggering a spell after it had crossed the boundary. This can be solved by simply requiring a certain amount of time within the aegis for an item to be considered native, so that smuggling the item in becomes a more effective strategy than firing a bow from a hidden position. or possibly teleporting to within range and firing.
It also occurs to me that most devices with an environmental trigger also require a spell to watch for the trigger, so a low level InTe spell that is constantly asking "did I hit sone" on the arrow which is turned off by crossing the aegis would also render the offense ineffective since it now no longer knows if it is to be triggered. Both of these options, however, seem more within the purview of the SG than the specific rules, though I note under environmental effects (again not within the DE which I don't yet have) "The item is only sensitive to major magical features of the environment" which suggests the need for a linked trigger instead, again needing a spell to be invested (also keeping it from being a charged item, which can only hold on effect) that the Aegis would defeat.
Your position is sound. I think most of us would be happy to have the Aegis effectively be a deterrent. It is a bit worse than the native/foreign status of items. I think the intention was that foreign entities and objects would fail to be effective within an Aegis, requiring some effort/stories to make them native. Whole problem is that even as foreign items, they are still allowed to activate & do their effect within the Aegis as the Aegis only gives a penalty to their penetration which does nothing to stop the effect from affecting anything that does not require a positive penetration value (i.e things that have no resistance).
I don't know if the solution to fix the Aegis is to HR all items. See this exact example from MoH p.134
Arrows of Defeat
Tolides created a set of enchanted arrows for a shady noble who had reason to fear his opponent’s cavalry’s strength in battle, and was pleased to learn about an effective means to counter this threat on the field. The arrows have been specifically designed to cover long distances, instead of featuring armor piercing or superior damage qualities. In the hands of an expert archer, and aimed at the ground right in front of the foremost rider, even a single well-placed arrow deals considerable damage to a small galloping army that is not quick enough to avoid the pit that seems to come from nowhere. The Lab Total used for this enchantment is 40, and thus yields six charges that Tolides distributes among six identical arrows with one charge each. As a set of charged items, the enchantment did not cost him any vis.
Gaping Maw of the Bottomless Pit PeTe 10 R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Part
The magical effect of the enchanted arrows is equivalent to the spell Pit of Gaping Earth (ArM5, page 155), but operates at Range Touch instead of Voice. Consequently, each arrow, being a carrier for the spell, must be aimed and fired to reach its target, because the arrows themselves do not have any supernatural flight qualities. After leaving the string of the bow used to propel it forward, and upon touching solid, earthen ground, each of the enchanted arrows destroys earth as described for Pit of Gaping Earth.
As we can see, there are no special triggers or additional effects required & I think that is ok normally. Just sucks for the Aegis.
Hermetic Craft Magic takes down the time to days instead of seasons to create the charged items.
"She makes these fabrics as charged items using her Craft Magic Virtue rather than the usual process for making charged items. While this means she uses her Casting Total rather than her Laboratory Total, it takes her mere days to instill the effects rather than a season. Since she can manufacture at least one sheet of fabric each day through mundane means, it takes her one day per charge to create these charged items. She usually instills one charge into each sheet. For example, if her Casting Total is 23, it takes four days to make four sheets of cloth containing the Iridescence of the Mallard’s Head effect, each holding one charge. She generally does not trigger the magic of the charged item until it has been formed into a garment, and each piece of cloth can have only a single magical effect. " MoH p.59
Yes. Loki's Magi might be the optimal build to take down Convenants. Within a day or two, in the forest with no Lab, he can craft an arrow with no vis, that will send crumbling down any structures irrespective of if there is an Aegis or not.
If Loki's Magi is allowed to do this, which I think as per RAW he is, I would think the Order of Hermes would outlaw the Rusticani and hunt them down to the last. Then forbit the creation of charge items without the sanction of a Quaesitor or similar authority... basically get a permit 
The safety of all before the liberties of the few... maybe said the Flambeau Quaesitor before killing the last Rustican. 
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Well... I didn't write a book on those stories. While travelling he could have had found a number of artefacts that the locals would know the stories of and return to The order as a gift. It is a very typical custom and typically, when there is a story happening in Mythic Arabia, few troupes comeback empty handed. The torch of burning could have as easily been any other contraption that was popular in the days of the war against the Saracen but yes, the lab season to know the activation is a road block especially for a young magi. Good point. The young magi would have to know what he is looking for maybe by having found some writings about it. that already gives the activation sequence. Maybe the Saracens already know the trigger? Again, so much is happening in Mythic Europe. Could be a Faerie Story, a demon plot, The young magi might be unknowingly doing the bidding of a senior Magi who let the trigger information leak, etc.
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I would expect a magical arrow fired from outside the Aegis to bounce when it hits the Aegis, in a manor similar to an enchanted sword bouncing when it hits the Parma Magica?
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It seems like all of this could easily be resolved with 'Spells and other supernatural effects from foreign items must have enough penetration to overcome the Aegis, or they are blocked.' And maybe include powers, spells, and other supernatural effects from foreign creatures as well -- but that is separate from the issue of dealing with items.
Does that create any problems?
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