Winter Has Come - Alliances are Falling - How do they Fall?

It has re-surfaced that Objects and creature powers (that have no might cost) do not have a casting Total and as such never fail to activate no matter the casting penalty they face from Aegis, PeVi, Aura or another other source. As such a simple PeTe 30 Arrow Charged Item is best suited to destroy Convenants, having all their structures fall onto them, bypassing the Aegis.

As the Definitive Edition is in the work, what Paradigm would we want to impose if we had the power to impose?

Effect in Items and their ability to activate
  • Items have no casting totals and as such never fail to activate
  • Items have no casting totals and as such always fail to activate if they face a penalty of more than 10
  • Items have no casting totals and as such always fail to activate if they face a penalty greater than 0
  • Items should have an Activation Total which needs to be positive to activate
0 voters

Logic would be the same for powers...

W

Never fail to activate doesn't mean they bypass the Aegis. You're simply wrong there. The rules as written work fine. Auras shouldn't provide magic resistance from items.

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This is addressed explicitly in ArM5DE: after talking about native vs foreign items, it notes that "many enchanted items do not need Penetration, and thus can be used within the Aegis without any problems." So, yes, if you can get your tower-destroying item into the Aegis, it is going to work.

For items that do need to penetrate - say, a charged magus-killer, or an Aegis-dropper - the trick is I guess to smuggle them in ahead of time, so they are native and not penalised by the Aegis.

Flawed question. None of the options are correct - an incorrect conclusion is included in the question. Grade: F.

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Not sure where you get that they bypass the aegis, they shouldn't. Not being affected by auras is a feature, at least for items.

Sure... not bypass the Aegis, it simply works irrespective of the Aegis.
Rules work fine if we are OK that items are the ultimate magical means to end Convenants within an Aegis and best handle anything without a resistance. Not saying that they aren't good to handle things with resistance because they also are.
Agreed that Auras should not provide resistance vs items. Question is if items should be allowed to activate irrespective of Aura interactions.

Yes. we agree. This is the current RAW.

You can do better than this Tellus. Grade C- just because you are a teachers pet (lol)

No seriously, plz provide what you think is the missing answer. I really think that RAW it is the never fail to activate option while the -10 fail aligns with regular casting and as such should have some support while the others just please me more (even if I voted for conservative change).

W

As per RAW and clarified in the current version of DE, items do not have casting totals which means that all the effects that target casting totals (Aegis, PeVi, Auras) do not prevent items from activating. They only impact their Penetration value so for example, a charged item with no penetration enters the Aegis 100 that has 200 penetration, give the charged item -50 Pen but the effect is still allowed to activate. This means for example, an arrow with a PeTe 30 EotMC except with a part modifier, is shot from outside the Aegis by a Grog Archer, enters the Aegis which has no effect on the charged item, hits the Tomb of Bonisagus (also known as the Tower of Bonisagus) and everybody inside suffers +10 damage (possibly more) as it all crumbles down.

W

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An Aegis has a far bigger problem in 5th edition: it's very easy to tear down for any Hermetic mage (or other entity capable of producing similar PeVi effects). At that point, it becomes far less of an issue whether enchanted items can "get around it".

Incidentally, it's worth noting that an Aegis affects (but does not warp) everything within it, including random pieces of masonry. So, a magus with a sufficiently strong Parma has a "pink dot" defense against any tower collapsing onto him.

Unless all the magi of or in that covenant had declarations of Wizard's War delivered to them at least a lunar month before, End of the Mighty Castle or such per arrow onto a covenant is an excellent way to incense not only the magi of that covenant - who are protected by their Parma from the magicked debris - but also all the other magi of the Tribunal at least. All able Quaesitores would strive to find the culprits (likely from the arrow in the debris), and all the Tribunal's hoplites and volunteers then hurry to dispatch them on a Wizard's March immediately declared by the Quaesitores present (HoH:TL p.63).
No need for an Aegis to fully protect buildings, possessions or Grogs of a covenant. The library of Durenmar has lots of magical protection for their books, though (GotF p.52).

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It is not clear to me if you refer to an item inside or outside the Aegis. AFAIU an item outside has to have penetration exceeding the Aegis, and cannot bypass. An item inside has already bypassed the Aegis in a way that a magus cannot.

This does not seem particularly problematic. The Aegis is just one out of many adverse conditions affecting magi, but neither creatures nor items, like auras, fatigue, injury, etc. If it is a problem, it should be fixed at a much deeper level that has not been touched since 2ed.

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Essentially, I'm stating that I'm not participating in your charade of a poll. None of the answers on offer are correct, and since you're offering a false conclusion in your question, I refuse to even dignify this further. If I had been your teacher (high school level), I'd have asked you to see me after class so we could go through this mess. But I'm not, and to be honest, I can't be bothered to try to explain in text.

I will now exit this thread, before I end up insulting anyone. Because I think that question is an insult.

I'm looking at the Core Rulebook, not the DE, but according to the 4th paragraph in the description of the aegis,

Effects from enchanted devices are resisted unless the item was within the aegis at th time of the casting

Generally items have to be activated by a person, so simply shooting an arrow into an aegis should not allow the arrow to cast a spell on its own upon entering. At best you can have a triggered condition, but more fundamentally the argument that it is because the object lacks a casting total is specious given this description, since it clearly has other defenses against enchanted items than lowering their casting total.

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The DE has a much expanded description of the Aegis. I don't think there are any actual changes in the rules, but it is much clearer on how it is supposed to work.

Aegis of the Hearth
R: Touch, D: Year, T: Bound, Ritual

This ritual protects a covenant in a way similar to the way in which a Parma Magica protects a magus. It provides very strong protection against supernatural effects and creatures that originate from outside the boundary of the Aegis, and much weaker and less consistent protection against supernatural effects originating within the Aegis. The ritual also allows certain individuals to be excluded from the effects of the Aegis, so that it does not hinder their supernatural powers at all. These individuals are referred to as "natives" of the Aegis in this description, and other individuals, and the effects they create, are referred to as "foreign". "Native" and "foreign" are determined for a particular casting of an Aegis. Each casting of Aegis of the Hearth determines who and what is native and foreign without reference to any other Aegis, even if it is a new Aegis being cast, by the same group of magi on the same boundary, to replace their covenant's old Aegis.

No foreign supernatural creature with Might, of any type, can cross the boundary of the Aegis unless its Might exceeds the level of the Aegis. The Aegis of the Hearth must Penetrate the creature's Magic Resistance in order to have this effect. A foreign supernatural creature that is within the Aegis when it is created is not expelled, although it does suffer the limits to its powers described later. If the creature were to leave the Aegis, it would need to have a higher Might than the Aegis, or resist the Aegis, in order to enter again. A spirit with Might that is capable of possessing another creature may enter the Aegis inside that creature, as long as it remains entirely passive. It is aware of what is going on, but cannot act in any way, including to end the possession. If the vessel becomes a native of the Aegis, the possessing spirit also does. The spirit can, however, have its invitation revoked (see later) separately from that of its vessel, if the person revoking the invitation knows that the spirit is there.

Any foreign supernatural effect that originates from outside the Aegis and would affect anything inside the Aegis must Penetrate a Magic Resistance equal to the level of the Aegis of the Hearth to take effect. If it fails to Penetrate, the effect fails completely and harmlessly. This applies to all effects, including Intellego effects that would not normally be blocked by Magic Resistance, and effects that would move something across the boundary of the Aegis.

This also applies to an existing foreign supernatural effect that tries to cross the boundary. If the effect cannot Penetrate the Aegis, it is dispelled. However, if the spell is cast on someone with Magic Resistance, for example an invisibility spell on a magus, then the Aegis must Penetrate the magus's Magic Resistance in order to dispel the effect. This includes such effects as the Parma Magica, Hermetic Longevity Rituals, Familiar Bonds, and Talisman Bonds. However, the last three of these are automatically sustained by the underlying magic, and so immediately come back into effect once the magus has entered the Aegis. Parma Magica must be raised again, in the normal way.

Any foreign supernatural effect originating within the boundary of the Aegis must subtract half the level of the Aegis from any Casting Total or equivalent. If the effect does not have a Casting Total, as for an effect from an enchanted item, then half the level of the Aegis is subtracted from its Penetration. If the effect has neither a Casting Total nor a Penetration, like the Parma Magica, it is not hindered by the Aegis once it is inside. The supernatural powers of creatures with Might that have been able to enter the Aegis are affected in the same way as any other foreign supernatural effect; this effect does not need to Penetrate Magic Resistance, unlike the exclusion effect.

Anyone who participated in the ritual to cast the Aegis is a native of that Aegis. Entirely mundane people can participate in the Aegis ritual. At most covenants, only the magi participate in the ritual, to avoid the risk of making disguised demons into natives of the Aegis, but this is a custom rather than a feature of the ritual.

Participants who have The Gift and have been opened to the Hermetic Arts are referred to here as "participating magi", although they may, for example, be apprentices. Participating magi, and only participating magi, can invite other individuals into the Aegis. This involves giving the individual a token that was designated as part of the ritual. Individuals that are invited in this way become natives of the Aegis. Any participating magus can also revoke an invitation, whether issued by themselves or by someone else. They do not need to retrieve the token in order to do this. Invitations and revocations can only be issued to specific individuals — it is not possible to revoke "all invitations", for example — but the individual does not need to be present. Invitations and revocations are effective even if the participating magus is mistaken about the identity of the individual. A participating magus can attempt to revoke an invitation even if they do not know for sure that a particular individual has been invited into the Aegis. If they were, then the invitation is revoked, but if they were not, this obviously has no effect. A creature with Might whose invitation is withdrawn is affected in the same way as a creature with Might who was within the Aegis when it was created. Individuals who participated in the ritual, including participants who are not participating magi, cannot be cast out of the ritual; they are native until the Aegis expires, or is dispelled.

Enchanted items can also be native to the Aegis. There are three main classes. The first is items that were within the boundary at the time the Aegis was raised. Unlike creatures with Might, non-sentient items become native to the Aegis simply by being present. The second class is items created within the Aegis by someone native to the Aegis. The third is items deliberately and directly activated by a native of the Aegis. Covenfolk who will use enchanted items may, therefore, participate in the Aegis ritual, but many enchanted items do not need Penetration, and thus can be used within the Aegis without any problems. The set of native items, like the set of native people, resets every time the Aegis is recast. Items, however, cannot be invited into the Aegis.

The Aegis is often cast on the Winter Solstice, as the Magic aura may be slightly higher, and this gives it a full year of duration. It is common for the covenant to hold a celebration for all the covenfolk, and a full council meeting for the magi, immediately after the Aegis is cast.

Aegis of the Hearth was created by Notatus, the first Primus of House Bonisagus. It was a Major Breakthrough (see page @@), incorporating Mercurian rituals as well as Hermetic theory, and was the reason Notatus was chosen to succeed Bonisagus. As a result, the spell is more powerful than it ought to be, and has no Perdo requisite. By 1220, Notatus's discoveries have spread, and any magus in the Order is capable of inventing versions of the Aegis with the above parameters, but different levels or sizes, or both. Inventing a version with different parameters, however, would require at least a Minor Breakthrough, and years of research.

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Ya... not sure about that. Wish it would have been clarified in the long DE Aegis text. To me, in order to practice lab activities, you need to be in touch with your experiment. If everything is resisted because it is "stained" by Aegis magic, I would think it is a problem for the activity. Also, would make the lab explosion results irrelevant. I suspect that all that is within the Aegis at time of casting is now Native to the Aegis (DE Language) and as such, not tainted by it and not subject to the pink dot Paradigm.

Sure. We agree. That Grog's life is forfeit. I can think of a million ways it can never be traced back to someone pertinent if they even exist. Remember, any object will be allowed to activate within the Aegis. Could be an item of Quality naturally found by the grog. Could be an infernal gift. Could be a dis-guarded charged item from 3 centuries ago. Could an object from a hedge tradition. Etc. ...

Arrow is outside of Aegis, goes inside of Aegis, Activates. Kills and destroys everything.

Corebook p.98 "Next you must specify the conditions under which the effect is triggered. A trigger can involve a command word or phrase, moving the item in a specific way (for example, waving or pointing a wand), a stance to be adopted, or anything physical that you can imagine.

For a PeTe charged item, I'd go with "Trigger when you hit stone" or "When hitting something hard" as the trigger might not be able to know it is stone. Anyhow, says limited by imagination which is large enough for us to find the right trigger I would say.

Been thinking about that. We don't have any in the books I think but we should design some if RAW is going to stay as is.

PeVi or ReVi effects targeting items specifically that prevent activation. We have a ReVi guideline that allows remote activation. Maybe the same can be used to lock them down?

Does it clarify enough to say that the pink dot defence does not apply as the structure is native to the Aegis and as such not magically tainted?

I really feel for Notatus. Not only he bears the shame of being dispelled in one round but now, magical objects can all destroy easily what his Aegis seeks to protect. Joking aside, I like the new description. I like the clarifications that it suspends for a round (I assume), Longevity Rituals, even Familiar Bonds & Talisman Bonds. Wish it would specify if the suspension of Longevity Rituals triggers an aging roll or not. Dispelling Parma ... Bold. Means more Magi will master Aegis in MR. Also means the Magi are now mostly waiting at the boundary of Aegis alongside their familiar until they get a token. Should specify if when token is removed while within the Aegis, if the Parma is also dispelled. Aegis now also needs Size increases as a 100 pace boundary is... small. interesting.

I also think, if a minor Breakthrough is all that is required, that the Merinita have their "until" version. The Mercurians have their "Road/Road Network" version. Everybody has a "Structure" version that is not even a ritual? If Aegis requires to be a ritual due to its "powerful" nature, no matter the parameters used, it should also be stated. In order to minimise changes to how the game was played prior to DE, I would have given the Notatus Design of the Aegis an embedded +1 or +2 of size as part of his optimisation of his lifetime work.

W

This is the problem with high school teachers these days. They have no will to fix things anymore :wink:

@Tellus once you have calmed down, from what ever construct you have caged yourself into, you are most welcomed to contribute to this real and interesting paradigm changing discussion. No need to try to bully further anyone here... we're likely all (mostly) too old for high school teaching anyway.

W

I just quoted the whole darn thing above, so you can read it and decide for yourself how clear or unclear you think it is.

As for pink dot effects, I don't see anything to suggest that the Aegis affects any items or creatures inside it. So it should not make them count as enchanted or magical.

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There is a problem with that text when read on its own. It says elsewhere that you can only trigger one item per combat round, and IIRC you have to concentrate on it. If it were as simple as the quote above, you could easily trigger a dozen items in a round, if each has for instance a single command word.

The exception is environmental triggers. I agree that you can «trigger when you hit stone» by adding the +3 to the effect level.

And btw, I do not have a problem with Aegis being less than perfect, and not being able to counter magic arrows.

Did I say that I play a rusticanus with a minor magic focus in arrows? :stuck_out_tongue:

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One detailed, working and plausible proposal is sufficient. I don't see anything. Don't forget, that not only the life but also the mind of that Grog will be - say - dissassembled by the Quaesitores.

Really?

Could not find exactly what your are referring to but if I had continued reading the quote I took, it says: "By default, the trigger action must be performed by someone holding the item, although intention does not matter." Not 100% sure what the "By default" is pointing to but one likely interpretation is that without something like adding a +3 for something like an environmental trigger, you need someone holding the item. So charged items by default need some hand holding. Goes on to say that intent is not required which seems to say that concentration is not required. Bit off if you ask me. Anyhoo, having hermetic charged items require a +3 to end convenants does not change the premise.

I'm also aligned with that. My problem is that items trump everything else while there are no mention in canon of it being the fatal flaw of the defenses of Alliances.

  • Dankmar/The dark fey waited patiently for decades for the Dark fir to be included in Durenmar's Aegis Boundary
  • During the Sundering, the Hermes Portals were faulted for the rapid demise of Alliances
  • In the Shism war, Some Diedne were hiding behind mighty Aegis and were simply waited out

No assault plan ever relied on a charged item destroying everything while the magi stayed home. That would not be the epic story to tell but it seems to be the best way to handle most problems. Need to control a grog, charged item of ReMe, give to a grog and he can have his way within the confines of the enemy convenant. Invisibility, poisons, flooding, infestations, etc.

In Alliance descriptions, there are no mentions of any item scrutinization nor are there any mention of any special defences against them. It is as if they are not a threat...

I may not have used the right term of item... there are so many.

RoP:M has a few but I'm sure there are other lesser supernatural tradition that produce items of sufficient threat that have been widely distributed in Mythic Europe. Again, I think they wen't identified as a concern as the mighty Hermetic order had an Aegis to subdue these minor items.

Lesser Enchantment Vis
This form of extraordinary vis emulates a lesser enchantment, usually level 30 or lower. Unless otherwise noted, the use of the vis’ magical effect does not consume or diminish the vis in any way

Spell-like Vis
Some extraordinary vis produces a magical effect that mimics a high-level spell, usually of level 60 or lower. Unlike lesser enchantment vis, spell-like vis cannot produce a continuous magical effect and is completely consumed at the end of the effect. The activation of the vis may require that it be consumed by the recipient of the effect, or it may wither and degrade in some other obvious way at the expiration of the magic. In any case, the operation of the magical effect completely depletes the vis. The magical effect generally requires some specific triggering event or special circumstances to initiate the spell-like effect.

Tim, a grog from who's lover was killed in the last expedition is in shambles. Not only did he lose his love but the Magi spared to tears, not even an acknowledgement of the loss he now feels. He swears revenge and goes to a crossroad where he prays for the means to his will. A creature appears, a fairy maybe, demon at worse but Tim does not care. The creature offers a rock, that when knocked 3 times on a structure's wall will send it crumbling but will also claim his own life. Time in his anger heads back to his home, takes the rock out of his pocket and knocks 3 times. On the 3rd try, the wall starts to fall onto him and kill him before he could see the destruction he brought on his former sodalis. His time in hell will be one of regret and anger as he could not even bear witness to his revenge. Quaesitors summon his soul to question him and only find men's sins to be at fault. Unknown to the Quaesitors was that Alphonso Of Tytalus who had been wronged by said expedition as the it belonged to one of his mundane cousins. He was monitoring the situation and when he saw the poor soul praying for vengeance, he seized the opportunity. Under MuIm guise, he gave the object to Tim. Said object carefully selected to have no ties to anyone living and from non-hermetic origins. Tim may not have gotten his vengeance but Alphonso did.

Laurent the Merchant brings goods to the convenant every week in crates. Food, wine, torches and such. Unknown to him, A charged item created by Philippus of Flambeau was added to one of the crates. When the torch would be lit, the whole structure would burn to crisp. When Quaesitores investigated, as the event eventually came to past, they had trouble identifying the sigil's owner but it turns out it belong to a magi that had passed on over 200 years ago from Val-Nagra. The Torch being a vestige of the wars against the Saracen heretics during the 10th century. Attempts to find out who placed the torch there or even for how long it had been there failed as everything lay in ashes. The Convenant of The Blue mountain had many ennemies over the last century but none seemed to have the means nor the will to do that much harm. Unknown to the Quaesitors was that Angeralis of Tytalus, who Gauntlet to full Magi a few years ago took onto him to challenge the stagnent alliance. Knowing that all Magi would survive the flames and rebuild anew a stronger and better alliance, he set the trap once he found the artefact in his travels in Arabia. When he heard the news of the fire a few years later, his heart was pounding, proud of a job well done!

W

I agree. Aegis is a shell of what it was but it is not more susceptible from "Entities". Without intrinsic knowledge of the Aegis, a General PeVi needs to be used which is much harder than the PeVi (Aegis) guideline. One hopes that most entities outside the order do not know the innner working of the Aegis. In this case, the order is the greatest threat to the order.

A few people, including me, seem to say the opposite. As everything within it, including random pieces of masonry, are by definition "Native" to the Aegis, they are not subject to it and are able to kill everyone as it all crumbles down, including folks with Parma. So... in the DE Aegis clarifications, everybody dies as it crumbles. :dizzy_face:

We seem to need to convince the powers that be that it is better if objects are impacted somehow or we need to make a few new guidelines that affect objects and locks them down and make it widely available in the order.

Or we just adjust to the Paradigm that objects are the most effective means against the order which could be fine too but I'd like it to be acknowledged somewhere.

W

The Aegis isn't a great protection even if it would block items entirely. Unless you have a really powerful Aegis - far beyond what most covenants can manage - it is not too hard to destroy, or simply get through it, with spells or powers.

One should not think of it as some near-impenetrable defense. It is nowhere near that.
It mainly serves to keep out supernatural riff-raff (low-Might beings) and making sure you need to spend some effort to get past it. No more than that.

So worrying about item effects from within is a bit like worrying that your glass house has a broken lock.

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