Rituals can also be powerful effects, without being Year Duration, Boundary Target, or above level 50.
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This is why I suggested above the a general statement about not getting a Ritual without starting with one (the original spell or the MuVi) would be a better way to go. That wouldn't handle the general level issue without a separate statement, but it would catch most the problematic stuff.
True. Both the limit on resulting level (to justify WB as written) and the general ban on rituals without rituals should be added to the guidelines.
I was focusing on what was relevant to OP.
How's this?
"If the parameters of a spell after it has been changed by a Muto Vim spell would normally require a Ritual, then at least one of the original spell and the Muto Vim spell must be a Ritual. A Formulaic or Spontaneous Muto Vim effect on a Formulaic or Spontaneous spell cannot produce an effect that would normally require a Ritual."
That is the problem. As stated, your suggestion is clearly wrong, because MuVi can make superficial changes to spells of up to twice the level of the MuVi spell. It's also clearly too weak for the guidelines that require the spell to not exceed half the level of the MuVi spell.
Also, as stated it contradicts Wizard's Boost, which allows the changed spell to exceed the base level of Wizard's Boost by one magnitude.
The fix is straightforward for superficial and significant changes (exceed by two magnitudes, and by one, respectively), but for total changes we seem to be stuck with not exceeding at all, because half magnitudes do not exist. That is a bit inconsistent, and means that each guideline needs a note, rather than just a general one. Is there a neater way of doing it?
Actually, Wizard's Boost already notes that spells affected by it cannot exceed it's level. THAT was the entire point of my original post.
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Sure, but superficial changes do not increase the effective level, so on this point the phrasing is correct, albeit not readerfriendly.
Sure, but there is no reason why it should attempt to rule out things which are already ruled out elsewhere in the guidelines.
Oops. Thus it has to be spell level, or something. Spell level is ok, I think. It increases for a voice range WB, but the point is that if the resulting level makes it a ritual, then the MuVi spell already has to be that level.
Indeed, but if that restriction is not stated in the guidelines, a magus should be able to invent a variant without it, otherwise identical to WB. Any troupe with a PC specialising in Muto Vim has to figure out exactly what that limit is and when and how it may be broken. That's the real background for your post 
I like it, but we (our troupe if not the forum) have to figure out also why WB has the restriction on level and if it can be relaxed in custom spells.
I would definitely change the middle of the last sentence. You cannot use MuVi on a Spontaneous spell. Including that note, while not contradictory, will tend to cause confusion.
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Nope, I was incorrect indeed. Forgot the errata.
Agreed with callen, the bit about affecting spontaneous spells must go to avoid confusion.
Otherwise, as written this disallows a non-Ritual MuVi effect to boost a Formulaic spell to Ritual, but allows a non-Ritual MuVi effect to downgrade a Ritual spell to Formulaic. I see absolutely no problem with that, but thought it was worth to point out.
It would not actually downgrade the ritual; it would remain a ritual, but of power which would not need a ritual. No problem, just a wasteful case which nobody would want in play.
I would have written non-ritual instead of «formulaic or spontaneous», both in this case and in the hypothetical case which might apply to both formulaic and spontaneous spells.
Yes, you're absolutely right.
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"If the parameters of an effect after it has been changed by a Muto Vim spell would normally require a Ritual, then at least one of the original spell and the Muto Vim spell must be a Ritual. For example, a Formulaic or Spontaneous Muto Vim effect on a Formulaic spell cannot produce an effect that would normally require a Ritual."
How's that?
At the moment, I don't have a good way to phrase the level limits, so I'm likely to rely on the fact that it hasn't caused serious trouble over the last twenty years and leave it — at least until I or someone else is inspired.
Casting a MuVi ritual on a merely formulaic spell being cast is tricky. But it might still work if the magus casts both the MuVi ritual and the spell to be changed.
Would that motivate you to write up clearly the technical sequence of the MuVi spell and the spell to be modified in errata? TMK we have only a post of you on the forum so far.
I think it just requires a single caster or cooperating casters, and that's already covered. (No fast-cast Rituals, thanks to an earlier erratum.) I am not convinced that there is an issue here that needs to be addressed.
It also requires a statement, whether a MuVi spell can target a spell to be cast later, right?
If the MuVi spell is a ritual, the formulaic spell to be modified is cast at least a full hour later: how to target that spell with the ritual?
Shouldn't we better have a description of the applicable casting sequence here, plus why and how it works?
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It would be good to have this in the errata. The official statement that this is how it works (MuVi followed by the spell to be modified) was made way, way back on the Berklist, after all. It is implied by the MuVi Duration erratum. But adjusting that erratum to say the next spell cast, maybe also to say that casting begins right after the MuVi spell has been cast, wouldn't hurt.
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Under the Muto Vim guidelines box on p. 159, it says: "These spells can only be used on Hermetic magic, as they depend on a good understanding of the processes involved."
HoH:S p. 126 has this:
"Minor Hermetic Virtue: Minor Magical Focus with Exotic Magic. This focus applies whenever the magus uses Hermetic magic to investigate, change, control or destroy non-Hermetic magic. It only applies to magic, not to the innate supernatural powers of creatures with Might, and only applies to powers derived from the Magic realm."
Sounds like we have a magical focus that partly covers something which is impossible according to the guidelines (Muto Vim on non-hermetic magic). Comprehend Magic then goes on to give a bonus to something that shouldn't work. I suggest some possible fixes:
- rewording the Muto Vim guideline to say something along the lines of "These spells can only be used on hermetic magic and types of magic the caster has some knowledge of (although not necessarily the ability to use it)." similar to what is in Perdo Vim.
- clarifying Comprehend Magic to say that once an object or creature has been observed for three rounds, the Pralicis knows enough to use Muto Vim magic on non-hermetic magic despite what traditional guidelines say.
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You can use ReVi to do some change/control stuff on non-Hermetic magic. That is the sort of thing the p.126 quote refers to. It does not include MuVi.
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That's a very strange reading, callen, considering change is Muto everywhere in the ars magicka game line, and that Comprehend Magic specifically gives a bonus to Muto Vim too.
And yet on page 129 Muto is specifically mentionned in the Comprehend Magic section: "The observer may add twice his Comprehend Magic score to the Casting Total of any spontaneous Muto, Perdo, or Rego Vim spell used against the object or creature studied."
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The "creature studied" might be a hermetic magus - and you can certainly use Muto Vim against their spells.
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