Methuselah will get the lab that Ulrich is finishing preparing, although it will be readily apparent that he couldn't have done all the work on his own. It is a +1 sized lab, with the free virtues already indicated. Resetting your lab nets you nothing, unless you want a physically larger lab (which is possible, but may not be beneficial, as it gives you a negative safety rating until you install virtues into it use up space). It depends on how long you want to take before you get into doing stuff. And in that case, you'll start from total scratch on a lab of your preferred size, but the free virtues are still available.

If you're purchasing Covenants, I highly recommend e23 for PDF version. I've even bought PDF versions of the books I've got in hardback. Searching PDFs rock.

The way it basically works, is that refining your lab creates space to install virtues into the lab. Virtues for labs, as for players, are minor and major, 1 and 3 points, respectively. In a +1 sized lab you can install a minor virtue in a season. Major virtues take two seasons, but you'll have to refine the lab for two seasons, first. In your case, with an effective Magic Theory of 12, you can have a lab of 9 refinement or install up to 10 points of virtues into the lab once it is fully refined. Major Virtues take two seasons to install, minor take one season to install. To get a fully refined lab would take you at least 4 years (16 seasons). 9 Seasons of refining and 7 seasons assuming you install 3 Major and 1 Minor virtue, but it could be more than that, if you install many minor virtues. And yes, one can take flaws to balance virtues, but it isn't necessary if the lab has enough space, either due to physical space or a highly refined lab.

From the Seasonal Activities thread:

I am not the authority but according to the page you reference Practicing an ability is a full time activity therefore I don't believe you can do it while inventing a spell in the same season. I think you would be better off joining the French class that I posted on the Seasonal Activities thread for Fall and Winter as you would earn 11 XP in French each season instead of just 8 XP.

Actually the only second source allowed is exposure. I note that you have labwork and being taught French.

Also you need to recruit another magus to ensure everyone gets 11 xp. Parma needs to be extended to every participant and the teacher. In this cas it is six people and your score is only 4. For everyone who doesn't have Parma it is a -9. Due to your Blatant gift and Ulrich's normal gift.

Methuselah isn't learning French, it's his native language so he will not be in the course, he just wants to get approval from the other magi to assign the teacher (a shared covenant resource) to training Ulrich for two season. I thought I was being efficient by having the grogs trained at the same time but I forgot about Ulrich's Gift modifier though so the Teaching Quality would drop from 11 to 8 which is the same as Practicing.

Ok revised proposal to make sure I have the rules correct. Ulrich gets solo tutoring in French from the teacher which adds plus 6 increasing the 8 Quality to 14. The grogs are assigned the task of practicing their French for the two seasons which gives them a Quality of 8. Does that work?

(Note: Due to his blatant gift, Methuselah has to rely on his grogs for handle mundane interactions so he intends to place a heavy emphasis on them learning the local language before the Summer 1221 season when his Princeps duties start.)

I just read the Woman in the Cave thread and it looks like I have been pre-empted on taking Ulrich as an apprentice before I even start to play so please ignore the Ulrich plans in my previous post.

Just as a comment, that is a little nasty since at the SG's nudging I dropped coming into the game with an apprentice so that Ulrich could continue to be played. That is not a complaint just a comment since I like getting my own apprentice in game. I will chalk it up to Methuselah's Enemies being one step ahead of him in their quest to prevent his inevitable rise to power. :slight_smile:

I thought perhaps you wanted to get to French 6... :smiley:

I had hoped the Woman From the Cave thread might drive this home. You don't get to unilaterally decide what Ulrich does. You and Peregrine_Bjornaer need to work out a roadmap for the character and let me know what that is. It's a negotiation. After that is done player to player you can role play out the actions as you'd like, and then Ulrich has to do as he's instructed, within the context of the roadmap you've agreed to. It's a fine distinction, but an important one. I'm not asking that you do the full 11.5 years remaining in his apprenticeship, a year or so at a time is probably sufficient. Peregrine probably has goals for the remaining portion of Ulrich's apprenticeship, and he has some Virtues and Flaws to pick up along the way...

You need to take this to heart, "House Bonisagus sees training apprentices as a solemn duty rather than a selfish benefit." HoH:TL, page 16. I had elsewhere asked you to clarify why you have such a warm relationship with your parens. You need to develop a consistent approach to this character, because I don't see him having a warm relationship with his parens based on the personality markers you've indicated to this point. This is like method acting, consider Methuselah's motivation, because I'm watching everyone for their own internal motivations. And when something doesn't seem to make sense, I comment about and ask for clarification.

I've also added another house rule. regarding learning a language, specifically French in this case.

And no, this isn't a pre-emption it's a trapdoor to keep you from abusing a player and deciding what a character of Peregrine's does without input.

You need to focus less on what I do as a trick or nasty suprise, but consider I have reasons for what I'm doing. Right now, there's a strong character motivation, he's been abandoned by his master and is all alone in the world. If you think a Gently Gifted Jerbiton, originally of Tremere wouldn't be protective of him, you don't really understand what's going on in the saga.

And to be crystal clear, I wasn't allowing apprentices before play began for anyone unless they had a player sign on to do it. Such an action would still require player to player negotiation, and approval from me. If I thought a player was abusing the relationship, I would've stepped in.

I believe in trapdoors, as a writing device, and I try and make then consistent with the saga and the character's individual settings. Iosephus is written out because he's contemplating himself as some element. Silviatios, Ulrich's previous master was written out by going on some solo journey, probably to some ancient Diedne site. He might've gotten more than he bargained for...

I use them in multiple and creative ways. Consider this a trapdoor for you to consider how to approach Ulrich. Your character will have no idea of the agreement between Tria and Apollodorus, and it will appear that Apollodorus is giving him to you, as your right as a Bonisagus. Tria is busy, very busy, and she's just finished training an apprentice and doesn't have time to start with one from scratch (she doesn't take them when they're Hermetically young, unless there's a strong reason).

And if you think Tria is an insta-brew character, ask Peregrine about her, how she almost killed her first apprentice in a fit of rage.

Please do not do that. Chalk it up to an SG wanting to tell interesting stories and balancing it amongst the players of the troupe. Peregrine agreed to play an apprentice and is interested in those story possibilities. He did not agree to have a character develop without his input. There's a strong distinction there.

I would do the same thing if you were playing an apprentice and another player was dictating the full development. I may not bring a Bonisagus to snatch him away from his master, but I might bring a rich magus dangling a queen (more or less as appropriate) of Creo vis. Hard for most players to say no to something like that.

Hope this doesn't come as a shot across the bow Victor...but you're new here, you're like a guest, but you're really acting a bit too familiar with everyone, including the GM. The GM is not out to get you, or cheat you, or handicap you, just make interesting stories. Your participation is needed in that. The other players aren't out to do those things either. Acting like any of us are makes the stories antagonistic rather than cooperative.

Sorry to be the one to say it, but I've been reading these posts for a few days now and cringing each time with each new post.

And Jonathon sorry if I'm assuming too much here or basically stepping on your turf by bringing this up.

No. I have been exercising an abundance of caution. I previously had a vigorous discussion (argument) with another player on the forum, in a different game. I am attempting to get my point across without being overly confrontational.

And to state my point clearly, again, and in front of everyone. I'm interested in telling stories that are interesting to everyone. Stories involve conflict. Good stories involve pain and loss to the characters. It will happen to every character eventually where something happens that the player may not consider good for the character, but ultimately that's because he's too close to his character to see how he can grow from the experience.

Fiona's timid but interested in intrigue, she needs to grow out of her shell if she's going to be a force to be reckoned with, politically.
Alexei's bold but it's mostly a facade that hasn't been penetrated, yet. And when it doesn, what happens to his world?
I don't have a handle on Flitairn yet, but I haven't seen any play with him, and mostly just character stuff. However, Hitsumei and I had a long discussion about this saga, via PM, before joined. So he has a very deep understanding of the saga, and he also has some inside information (not a lot, and not enough to give him a leg up on anyone really). Even if he did, what he has shown me to date doesn't suggest he would take advantage of that information. I also feel the same with Peregrine and qcipher, that if they knew something they wouldn't automatically use it for maximum character advantage in an obvious way.

I'm not sure I have a handle on Methuselah. I'm having trouble differentiating between the character and the player. There are inconsistencies that need to be resolved, and they can be. Almost anything can be justified, and your writing and strenuous arguments demonstrate that you can write. I just need you to differentiate your character a bit more. You've made comments and assumptions about what your character thinks, and when I've offered some corrections, you haven't really backed up some things. So I don't know what you think your character knows.

I need you to step back a bit and think about your character's motivation, Victor. He wants to be political, but he's very selfish and has deficient political skills. He expects to be praised for his work, and while his writing is very good, it is, as I've said, probably seen as vain to try and write as much as he does instead of conducting original research someone of his skill should be doing. He might present it slightly differently, but it's not new information, per se. Murion, will be a tough act to follow in her role as Primus, and since she's only 98, you're going to have a long wait for her to step aside, and she has ambitious goals. Assuming that they don't blow up in her face, it'll be tough. Also, assume that she could've procured one of the best Longevity Rituals available, from someone like you, but is better. There can always be someone better. Someone who takes risks in the lab and gets luck a lot. Someone who, while researching Longevity Rituals, discovers a way to double their effectiveness? You are one of ~100 in your House. Not a number, certainly, but the Order is much larger, and some ex Misc out there could have a tradition you don't know about.
Don't fight me, allow the story to develop. This constant I want stuff has to stuff, or it just won't happen. I know what you want, I know how to take you there. I think it could be an interesting story for everyone. Let the story unfold as it will. Adjust your expectations of pacing, too. Things will unfold as I need them to unfold.

For some reason, a scene from Babylon 5 just popped in my head, in which Delenn says something like "I'm not saying a thing. I didn't say anything then, and I'm not saying anything now."

Tired and geeky...a bad combination.

I'm not remembering that scene. Obviously, I must rewatch B5 from start to finish to find it.

In other news...

Yes, I went there.

Andre...the Giant?

You'll see...

I had the same thought.

It was in the telemovie In The Beginning, it popped up something like three times between Delenn and a couple of others, one of the Grey Council and one of the Rangers, iirc.

facepalm I'm a wrestling geek, and I missed that. gah!

I'm not sure I remember seeing it. I kinda stopped watching B5 religiously when it went to TNT and basketball moved it all over their schedule. Got too hard to follow it.

It's worse than that. I also dropped a Princess Bride (picture) reference at the beginning of the Miles story...

That, I caught - Xander looking like Vincenzo. qcipher even replied with his Catchphrase.

hmmm...need to find someone cheap (or free) who can do a pic of Fiona...I tinkered with HeroMaker and that didn't look right. And of my two artist friends, neither one has a style that I think would work.

Soooo...does Filtiarn's weasel look anything like this?

You gotta a problem with that? :laughing: