Wait! What'd I miss?!

All the labs are setup +1 size. Founding members had the benefit of extensive correspondence with Apollodorus to have had items installed, such as your still

I don't think that's correct. You got a page reference for that?
It is, however, probably a good rule of thumb, but I can't see anything in Covenants that jumps out at me with that limitation

Ah ok, that's fine, I don't see that as something Alexei would have requested. Plus I like the gradual lab improvement process.

The still was Fiona's

If you want to backup and take 2 seasons to setup a lab from scratch, I have no objection to that...

No we'll keep what we have from the boon that was paid for and I'll work from there.

Ah...found where I got that from.

So, she could increase her lab's Refinement right away, to get it to +1. Once she's been in the lab at least a year, she can get it to +2. Once she's been in it for two years, she can increase it to +3 - which is the highest she can get it, unless she increases her Magic Theory.

I think you're parsing it extremely finely.
Take out the parenthetical part. A maga must be familiar with the lab and have a Magic Theory equal to at least the desired refinement score. To be familiar you have to have worked in it for at least a number of years equal to the current refinement. Which I take it to mean you move into a new lab with a refinement of +5 you have to wait five years before you can refine it further. I consider it axiomatic to be familiar with a lab of your own construction.

So she could, then, spend the first three seasons to get the refinement up to +3 if she so chooses? Burns Excellent./Burns

Sure. But, ignoring your apparent player greed, :mrgreen:, do you think that's a fair reading and interpretation of the line?

So I wrote this, and I'm thinking that I want to keep the new players very busy for this time. I'm going to go ahead and advance on their princeps season, and I'm going use SG fiat to say that they are accepted as full members. I won't plan to do this again, but in this case, I want to keep everyone active.

I'm changing my request for everyone to update the season activity thread for 1220 and 1221. Qcipher, you have spring 1220 activity that is essentially princeps work, you can take seasonal research, labwork, whatever for that season. The efforts at recruiting the turb aren't all that successful, but it's a long term project, and I'd like you to have a more productive season. You'll be getting a spring 1221 princeps season, starting immediately following the resolution of the Xander thread Fiona will have a non princeps story in 1221.

And again, anyone who wants to be at Tribunal may attend, regardless of their other responsibilities, lab plans, as it will take less than the 10 days, including travel time.

I'm no rules expert since I am new to ArM5 (have played versions 2-4 though) but the way I understand the line as written would be as follows:

  1. if the lab was created by someone else but has a Refinement score of 0 then the mage could refine the lab right away (since the number of years equal to the Refinement score would be 0). This means any mage can could take over a standard lab and begin customizing it immediately as they see fit. The refinement could progress up to the limit imposed by Magic Theory in sequential seasons without requiring waiting any subsequent years since the waiting limit was on the "existing" refinement score. This makes sense to me since the mage would be involved in any refinements once he has taken over the lab therefore he would be familiar with all such refinements as they are made.

2a) the labs which the player takes over with existing refinements should be subject to that waiting rule though since the player don't appear to have been actively involved in their creation. This seems like a fair trade-off have a good lab to start but have to wait a few years before improving it further or have a normal lab to start and begin customizing it yourself right away. Personally I like the latter option since I'm a fan of growing my own lab and describing the details as I go.

b) if the labs had no refinements at the start of Spring 1220 when the magi arrived and all the refinements were made in that first season (I don't know how long the customizations would take but I don't think this is likely the case) then the mages should be able start further refinements right away since they were present when the labs had no refinements.

Just my opinion on the rule interpretation but it doesn't really matter to me either way. I'm going to reset my lab to 0 and rebuild it from scratch just so I can go through the process. I was holding off on buying the covenants supplement until I was sure I was going to be accepted into the game but it seems like I'm tentatively in so I'll buy it this weekend.

As a related aside does Ulrich get exposure experience in Magic Theory for building the lab? The poor lad is pathetic and needs all the help he can get! :slight_smile:

From the covenant description thread:

So based upon the standard Ars rulebook my understanding is that the covenant gets this Teacher for two seasons each year to hold classes and no one else seems to have given him instructions yet. Is it ok with the troupe if I assign him to teaching French for the Fall and Winter seasons? I would like to have Ulrich and my 4 grogs (I should have their character sheets ready by end of day sunday) attend the classes but with a Teaching score of 6 he could teach up to 30 students at once with a Quality of 11 so other characters may want to attend.

If we make one of the teaching seasons in 1221 Spring then all the students could have earned 33 xp in french and be fluent enough to interact with the locals without excessive translating by Summer 1221.

Since the Teacher is bought on bps does he need to be fleshed out more? I'll volunteer if required but if its not necessary then I'd prefer to avoid it at the moment as there are other things I want to write up first (grogs, companion, prelude journey to Bibracte etc).

Methuselah will get the lab that Ulrich is finishing preparing, although it will be readily apparent that he couldn't have done all the work on his own. It is a +1 sized lab, with the free virtues already indicated. Resetting your lab nets you nothing, unless you want a physically larger lab (which is possible, but may not be beneficial, as it gives you a negative safety rating until you install virtues into it use up space). It depends on how long you want to take before you get into doing stuff. And in that case, you'll start from total scratch on a lab of your preferred size, but the free virtues are still available.

If you're purchasing Covenants, I highly recommend e23 for PDF version. I've even bought PDF versions of the books I've got in hardback. Searching PDFs rock.

The way it basically works, is that refining your lab creates space to install virtues into the lab. Virtues for labs, as for players, are minor and major, 1 and 3 points, respectively. In a +1 sized lab you can install a minor virtue in a season. Major virtues take two seasons, but you'll have to refine the lab for two seasons, first. In your case, with an effective Magic Theory of 12, you can have a lab of 9 refinement or install up to 10 points of virtues into the lab once it is fully refined. Major Virtues take two seasons to install, minor take one season to install. To get a fully refined lab would take you at least 4 years (16 seasons). 9 Seasons of refining and 7 seasons assuming you install 3 Major and 1 Minor virtue, but it could be more than that, if you install many minor virtues. And yes, one can take flaws to balance virtues, but it isn't necessary if the lab has enough space, either due to physical space or a highly refined lab.

From the Seasonal Activities thread:

I am not the authority but according to the page you reference Practicing an ability is a full time activity therefore I don't believe you can do it while inventing a spell in the same season. I think you would be better off joining the French class that I posted on the Seasonal Activities thread for Fall and Winter as you would earn 11 XP in French each season instead of just 8 XP.

Actually the only second source allowed is exposure. I note that you have labwork and being taught French.

Also you need to recruit another magus to ensure everyone gets 11 xp. Parma needs to be extended to every participant and the teacher. In this cas it is six people and your score is only 4. For everyone who doesn't have Parma it is a -9. Due to your Blatant gift and Ulrich's normal gift.

Methuselah isn't learning French, it's his native language so he will not be in the course, he just wants to get approval from the other magi to assign the teacher (a shared covenant resource) to training Ulrich for two season. I thought I was being efficient by having the grogs trained at the same time but I forgot about Ulrich's Gift modifier though so the Teaching Quality would drop from 11 to 8 which is the same as Practicing.

Ok revised proposal to make sure I have the rules correct. Ulrich gets solo tutoring in French from the teacher which adds plus 6 increasing the 8 Quality to 14. The grogs are assigned the task of practicing their French for the two seasons which gives them a Quality of 8. Does that work?

(Note: Due to his blatant gift, Methuselah has to rely on his grogs for handle mundane interactions so he intends to place a heavy emphasis on them learning the local language before the Summer 1221 season when his Princeps duties start.)

I just read the Woman in the Cave thread and it looks like I have been pre-empted on taking Ulrich as an apprentice before I even start to play so please ignore the Ulrich plans in my previous post.

Just as a comment, that is a little nasty since at the SG's nudging I dropped coming into the game with an apprentice so that Ulrich could continue to be played. That is not a complaint just a comment since I like getting my own apprentice in game. I will chalk it up to Methuselah's Enemies being one step ahead of him in their quest to prevent his inevitable rise to power. :slight_smile:

I thought perhaps you wanted to get to French 6... :smiley:

I had hoped the Woman From the Cave thread might drive this home. You don't get to unilaterally decide what Ulrich does. You and Peregrine_Bjornaer need to work out a roadmap for the character and let me know what that is. It's a negotiation. After that is done player to player you can role play out the actions as you'd like, and then Ulrich has to do as he's instructed, within the context of the roadmap you've agreed to. It's a fine distinction, but an important one. I'm not asking that you do the full 11.5 years remaining in his apprenticeship, a year or so at a time is probably sufficient. Peregrine probably has goals for the remaining portion of Ulrich's apprenticeship, and he has some Virtues and Flaws to pick up along the way...

You need to take this to heart, "House Bonisagus sees training apprentices as a solemn duty rather than a selfish benefit." HoH:TL, page 16. I had elsewhere asked you to clarify why you have such a warm relationship with your parens. You need to develop a consistent approach to this character, because I don't see him having a warm relationship with his parens based on the personality markers you've indicated to this point. This is like method acting, consider Methuselah's motivation, because I'm watching everyone for their own internal motivations. And when something doesn't seem to make sense, I comment about and ask for clarification.

I've also added another house rule. regarding learning a language, specifically French in this case.

And no, this isn't a pre-emption it's a trapdoor to keep you from abusing a player and deciding what a character of Peregrine's does without input.

You need to focus less on what I do as a trick or nasty suprise, but consider I have reasons for what I'm doing. Right now, there's a strong character motivation, he's been abandoned by his master and is all alone in the world. If you think a Gently Gifted Jerbiton, originally of Tremere wouldn't be protective of him, you don't really understand what's going on in the saga.

And to be crystal clear, I wasn't allowing apprentices before play began for anyone unless they had a player sign on to do it. Such an action would still require player to player negotiation, and approval from me. If I thought a player was abusing the relationship, I would've stepped in.

I believe in trapdoors, as a writing device, and I try and make then consistent with the saga and the character's individual settings. Iosephus is written out because he's contemplating himself as some element. Silviatios, Ulrich's previous master was written out by going on some solo journey, probably to some ancient Diedne site. He might've gotten more than he bargained for...

I use them in multiple and creative ways. Consider this a trapdoor for you to consider how to approach Ulrich. Your character will have no idea of the agreement between Tria and Apollodorus, and it will appear that Apollodorus is giving him to you, as your right as a Bonisagus. Tria is busy, very busy, and she's just finished training an apprentice and doesn't have time to start with one from scratch (she doesn't take them when they're Hermetically young, unless there's a strong reason).

And if you think Tria is an insta-brew character, ask Peregrine about her, how she almost killed her first apprentice in a fit of rage.