"I don't have a preference, of course if more magi who are part of Mons Electi, then I have the more time I have to devote to Art. So leaving the charter as it is, and allowing two obviously junior magi that level of responsibility would be risky. But I think it would be more risky to your interests, than mine."
"- More risky to our interests? " Fieltarn seems sincerely puzzled at the choosing of words from Apollodorus.
"Certainly, since I don't wish to be involved in the day to day governance and expect to only act as an advisor, advising less and less over time. If you have junior magi taking over the administration of the covenant, with all the rights and priveleges that go with that responsibility, then that is fine with me, as I've already made that decision for myself. I don't presume my interests in starting this Covenant are the same as Onesiphorus', Fiona's or Alexei's were in founding it with me. Just as I don't presume your interest in joining us is the same as mine. I've already accepted the risks, adding more and junior magi doesn't change the calculus for me, it may for you."
Sipping from a wine glass he drifts off into an introspective state. "When I started seeking Magi, I had only the 10 pawns of Mentem vis that I collected, but that alone was tiring to me and kept me from doing the things I wanted to do. So, I would be fine if we absorbed Atsingani's magi into our covenant, as they would insulate me from the risk of having to administer the covenant like I did last year. I made a promise to all of you here, that the impact on your time to study your Arts or other interests as you may would be minimal. I stood by that promise last year. I am motivated to not have to go through the same efforts, again."
" - I understand, thank you for this clarification of your position, Apollodorus." answers Fieltarn politely, nodding as someone who find the answers reasonable enough. " And I apologize to my sodales if I've just asked you to reiterate here what the other founders of Mons Electi were already advised of."
That being said, I personally think that proposing full membership to Atsingani's magi is the more... interesting option. And yes, I concur that amending the Charter is a reasonable precaution; not just regarding Atsingani's magi, but our prospective fillii too. Fieltarn looks at all the other magi, softly tapping his fingers against one another, thoughtfully.
So, let's resolve this! How should we best tackle this amendment, now?
Should the Charter precise that to be Princeps, members of Mons Electi would need to have at least... 20, 30 years under their belt, past Gauntlet? Should a... err, recognition of good standing, or confirmation vote of sort, be required too? Do any of you have some other limitation of privileges in mind? How about vis distribution, equal standing or... ? While his eyes rest a bit more on the founding members of the covenants, out of respect, Fieltarn makes it clear that he's submitting his questions to everyone...
[color=blue]"I've spent all my life in such a stratified covenant," Fiona says. [color=blue]"I'm not willing to put any younger magi through that. If, after their seven seasons of service, we feel that a probationary member is incapable of fulfilling the duties required by the Charter, especially taking the task of acting as Princeps, then perhaps we should not elevate them to the status of Full Member until we feel they are."
Fiona pauses for a moment in consideration. [color=blue]"Perhaps, if someone feels that a new member is not quite qualified to act as Princeps, perhaps someone could mentor them during their tenure, give them the benefit of their experience both as a magus and as a Full Member of the covenant who has already acted as Princeps."
[color=blue]"We already have such a probationary period written into the charter...seven seasons."
[color=blue]"I had considered offering them membership in Mons Electi, subject (of course) to the unanimous approval of my sodales.
I then dismissed the idea, because they have until a few weeks ago been vassals of Montverte. I could not justify, in my mind, embracing those who had so recently acted against us. One motive I had in taking them as our vassals is that it would give us time to watch them, to judge them, to see if they were indeed simply acting upon the orders of Montvert in raiding Paul-Henri's farm. If, in time, they can prove to us that they are mindful of our interests and are as worthy of our trust as each of us is, then we can offer them membership in Mons Electi. That time, I feel, is not yet come."
[color=blue]"I would be hard-pressed to approve any such amendment."
"Hmm? Mah Familiar and Ah can reach 18th without assistance - Ah assumed the benefit of an attuned Aura or Lab in mah bragging."
"Ah have to admit, Ah'm much more comfortable with vassalage than full membership mahself,"Jormungand murmurs, his eyes half-closed. "Ah know none have seen hide, hair, water, earth, or air of magus Iosephus and Silviatos, but their signatories are still on the Charter. With the addition of Fieltarn, Korvin, and mahself we've still grown to an active Council of Seven and Membership of Nine. By Freyja, Ah cannot even imagine what trying to make major decisions amongst ten or twelve are like - we're getting almost as bad as the Full Pantheon. Ah course, that's why a Covenant stratifies membership. To keep decisions manageable. If we must divide our membership, then Ah ask we do so now, even in distaste if necessary-"he looks at Fiona as he says this-"because it will be that much harder later. If Ah could suggest, instead of Hermetic Seniority, it be Covenant specific, say, a quota of seasons of Covenant Service before qualifying for acting Princeps, which can be pre-empted by unanimous approval of the Council?"
He smirks for a moment, "Ah would rather get the stick now and enjoy the carrot later if Ah must as a Probationary Member to clarify mah standing later. Heck, Ah even enjoy the stick sometimes more than the carrot." He finishes with a licking of the lips and a lazy smile again.
While I admit not being overly familiar with the details of this incident, I understand your circumspection. On the other hand, I could see - even though I would not approve of - how they ended up using such coercitive, and a bit vulgar, methods. From what I've seen and heard, they're desperate. They just settled their covenant in a farm... their Council Chamber is in a freaking barn, even! Unlike us, here and now, they have to conduct their debate amid the charming smell of animal droppings and their grog's socks. In short, they're pauper magi, and I'm not saying that to mock them, on the contrary, but rather since I recognize in them what I have been most of my life, myself!
You know all a this already, of course. However, if I'm underlying this it's because I'm... worried about them. You see, I'm not sure that in their current situation they'll get that much time to prove us their good intents. Not if we relegate... hmm, I mean if Mons Electi only take them as Vassals. Unless I'm mistaken, I doubt that MontVerte will not try and teach them a lesson of some sort... perhaps of the lethal kind even, before turning its attention to us. On the other hand, as members of Mons Electi, such retribution would be less probable, at least on a short term basis, and above all less easy for MontVerte. And we would also get the benefit of Atsingani's experience with MontVerte, which I'd venture they'd be more keen to share with us as our sodales, defending a common covenant - and not just their skin... and barn. Well, that's my view on the subject at least. I'm pretty sure that I'm still in the minority, and I do hope that I'm wrong... after all, what's good taking vassals if they end up in the gutter with a slit throat.
" - Good. Fine with me, actually. It would not be my preference either, I just thought that the question needed to be asked, if only to be better put aside."
Fiona regards the young man thoughtfully.
[color=blue]"That seems a reasonable compromise to me."
Fiona is finding it increasingly difficult not to be distracted. She rouses herself again and does some mental figuring...considering how chilly it is outside, her Creo Aquam should be potent enough for her to spontaneously create a momentary ice-cold shower after the meeting (Cr 6 + Aq 5 + Sta 3 + Aura 5 = 19 + die roll, ÷ 5 is roughly 4, vs. a base effect 4? + 1 for R: Touch = Level 5). Or she could simply find a fountain, spring, creek, pond and dunk herself.
[color=blue]"While I do not believe that we are sworn to protect them against attack unless they ask for assistance, I would think that we would have at least a moral obligation to prevent their destruction until such time as they show that they are capable of their own defence."
"There is a legal distinction to consider, though. If the Magi, leave Atsingani, dissolving it, and join Mons Electi, we are not at risk of depriving Montverte of a vassal. I think it unlikely that Montverte will pursue the low crime charge of "Interefering with a vassal." They, Atsingani, sought us out, and a vassal swearing allegience to a new liege isn't unusual in the mundane world. Our Tribunal has an inordinate appreciation of the mundane trappings of chivalric code, which may work in our favor. I would be intrigued to see what their reaction might be, if we offered the Magi membership instead of vassalage. Their reaction may indicate whether or not this is actually a ruse by Montverte or a genuine request for a change in vassalage."
I do not know enough about the rules of vassalage to comment but Apollodorus makes sense. If this other covenant has already asked for it's favor from its liege then tries to change I could see where the liege could be very angry.
Alexei was drinking and snoozing through much of the discussion choosing (perhaps wisely) to stay out of it in his current temper. But...
"Wait...as vassals we had some control. Now you suggest they join us? This likes me not! I still have a bone to pick with the one that apparently is leader of a bunch of brigands!"
"Alexei, I think you have yourself turned around. As a vassal, we have no control over their actions, how they conduct themselves. They can do as they desire, so long as they meet the terms of their vassalage with us. In addition we have responsibilities to them, to come to their aid, should need arise. Could such assistance because they've raided something to big for them to handle?
"If they are members, we control their individual actions through censure, or other disciplinary action. If this Jacques leads a raid against a farmer, a travelling merchant, or a mundane lord, we can discipline him if he's part of Mons Electi. We cannot discipline him when he's part of Atsingani, and worse, we can be just as responsible for his actions, because he is our vassal. We can discipline our vassal, certainly, but this affects all the magi."
"Thatsh what I was saying!" he slurs as he slaps his hand down on the table. "We are responsible if they keep raiding as vassals! They raid some covenant's sheep and that covenant comes to us! And then what! We need to give the spanking should they mess up!"
"So you think we should invite the members of Atsingani to dissolve their covenant and join us?
"Damn right!" Alexei snarls.
Onesiphorus looks up from his wax tablet where he has been drawing some new additions for his lab. Sorry but I must ask and perhaps someone can fill me in... Why should we take care of these magi eithar as members or as vassals? They sound more like trouble than anything else. Should we not keep them at pillum range and be content with that?
"So it appears most of us want to bring them into the fold, if the members of Atsingani are interested, rather than allowing the covenant to become our vassal. Should we invite them in and put the question to them directly? Or must we have unanimous agreement before doing so?"
I would think that a majority should be enough. Korvin pauses, " But should we considered, if they all accept the invitation, what we would do with them? Do we have room for more labs? Or would they become more of a chapter house, a'la the Rhine Tribunal and stay at their own buildings.
Alexei's eyebrows are furrowed. Did he just agree to inviting them into the Covenant as members? He shakes his head to clear it. He must have, they were all agreeing to it now, he shrugged his shoulders, maybe this could work out. "But! But, I want some bloody assurances that they're not just a bunch of thieving wizards come to steal our vis! What are they bringing to make sure we can trust them! And I want them to submit their Turb for a thorough..." he cracks his knuckles "Inspection! My man Gunnar has a way with truculent and willful Grogs. I bet Mufarrj does as well!"
[color=blue]"Each member of Atsingani, if I'm interpreting our charter correctly, is still subject to the unanimous vote of the Council if they are to be offered status of Probationary Members. I do not think we are agreeing to offer Atsingani membership en masse. However, there is nothing prohibiting their invitation as Protected Guest, which is good until either the inviter or a majority of the Council revokes that status."
She looks directly at Apollodorus and address the council as a whole. [color=blue]"Is there any among us willing to take responsibility for inviting the whole of Atsingani to be our Protected Guests while we evaluate the possibility of extending invitations to become members of the Covenant?"