1222-1227 OOC

He's there! Or will be, given half an excuse. Wait - Gaston needs to practice his axe every once in a while.... (goes to post)

As things stand now, yes. I'd prefer to re-write the governmental structure, but the only character I play who would make a strong argument for it would be my familiar.

Au contraire. The only real impact Code of Hermes has on the covenant is being able to identify violations of the Code or Peripheral Code in the context of the covenant. Typically, covenants can determine their own method of governance...

That's not a "what skills do they have" thing, it is a personality thing. Viscaria tends not to think beyond her own lab and personal safety. Thera is the one who wants all the pieces around her to line up right.

Still... Viscaria can determine what works best for her... And not being a Princep in charge of all day-to-day stuff is a big deal. :smiley:

I will update the Mage planner to reflect this but we need someone to take Precept in 1225.1 if Korvin is going to do this.

I do question why it must be done in 1224.3 and can't possibly wait until 1225.1.

And I now know what it feels like to almost die laughing.

:laughing: Glad I could be of service!

I'm currently taking Precept in 1225.1, and take responsibility for finding a pasty to put in the role.

As for 1224.3 / 1225.1, it was you that offered to do it earlier. I just asked that it get done. I am fine with you doing it in 1225.1, or with Jacques doing it 1225.2

Is it weird that I am squicked by the apprentices making out as too young?

How to put it without sounding confrontationnal, which ain't the goal?

What I want first is a clear and precise mechanic for how the Aegis works, which impacts the saga.

It is absolutely not clear that the Aegis snuffs spells (I think it doesn't), although you could rule it that way. I'll admit I was a little unnerved by you presenting it as clearcut, thus my previous reply.

But if you rule that the Aegis snuffs out spells brought within, what do you mean exactly?

There are 2 options. Either it works like Perdo Vim (it dispells magic) or it works like Rego Vim (it supresses it, like Supressing the Wizard's Handiwork).

  • The Perdo Vim option would have it logically cancel the Parma, which was clearly ruled out by David Chart. So this tend to favor Rego Vim, although you could rule out that this is "like" Wind of Mundane Silence, but doesn't affect parma. This means that if someone is cursed (like the grogs were by Somnifer), the Aegis will dispell that curse, period.
  • The Rego Vim option doesn't à priori affect Parma (see Supressing the Wizard's Handiwork). It means that, so long as you're into the Aegis, a spell cast on you ain't active, but that it'll work again when going out. So someone cursed would only escape the curse while inside the aegis.

As per the cartoony effect... :unamused: It is only so because you wishes to describe it so.
The Parma works like that. Wards work like that. You've probably seen video games, movies or TV shoes were a hero or monster couldn't enter a warded zone. I don't think you'd describe it as cartoony.
Note that if your problem is pink dot, I've never seen anyone try it with Parma. Why would they with the Aegis? But then, I've got about the best half-workable solution that doesn't rely on "intelligent parma" right about here. And you'll like it, since it involves a bit of Perdo Vim :wink:

Bad news: It means you're joining the ranks of the Old and Outdated :wink:

Whether it suppresses or negates is really moot to the central question, the one you first proposed, which is someone with an active effect is blocked from entering an Aegis (unless the spell penetrates).

Do you see it? Because it's very clear to me. I do not like the idea of someone being unable to enter an Aegis because they have an active effect which does not penetrate the Aegis. It's just not going to happen, in this saga. The method of suppression is irrelevant to the discussion of whether someone can enter the Aegis. Humans, people who have free will and are not beings of Might can enter Aegis anytime they wish. They just accept the consequences of their actions when they cross the Aegis boundary.

The next issue to tack is then on how to give characters, both players and NPCs enough information to make logical decisions when confronted with a foreign Aegis. The first issue, IMO, is to know that it is close by. If a character only knows when they cross the border of the Aegis, then it is too late. Whether it is suppressed or cancelled, the effects end the moment they cross the Aegis. Person with an active flight effect pierces the dome of a foreign Aegis, his effect does not penetrate, does it really matter whether it is suppressed or negated? Absolutely not. It's a distinction without a difference, because in both cases the flyer will fall to their likely death. So, i want the person who is flying to be able to know in advance and make a course correction and avoid the Aegis. Isn't that reasonable?

For now, and again, it's my general ruling and I'm not going to discuss it any further, unless the entire troupe agrees that it needs to get hashed out, is that effects are cancelled, not suppressed when crossing an Aegis boundary.

Also, please remember, once I make a ruling, it becomes your job to convince the troupe, except for me, to see your point of view. In other words, stop discussing it with me. Arguing with the SG about a ruling is the last thing I want to have happen with this saga (or any saga!). I am often wrong, and sometimes I will self-correct or be nudged into a correction by an affected player, especially when it is an egregiously incorrect understanding, but on something like this that affects all Aegides everywhere (what I like to term saga cosmology), I'm going to stand firm. I have implemented a pretty clear and reasonable rule for overruling my decision. You can think I'm wrong with great passion. Instead of using that passion to convince me, use it to convince the other players. And you either need to convince them that I am wrong and that they agree with you, or they need to just not care enough to object to your interpretation. If everyone is at that level, I change it. Very simple.

So, here's my clear and complete ruling. The troupe may pick it apart, but I'm out of the discussion, unless I have a specific question on it. I'll post it to HR within a few days if there isn't sufficient comment about it.

Aegis of the Hearth does not block magi (or people without might) with active effects which do not penetrate the Aegis. Magi or mundanes which have some supernatural ability that can detect magic can feel that an Aegis is close at hand before crossing the Aegis boundary and may determine of their own free will on whether to cross the boundary or to not cross the boundary, even with a flight spell with a speed of ~40 mph they have sufficient time to make a course correction to avoid crossing the boundary, if they act immediately.
Magi who enter a foreign Aegis of the Hearth with active effects that do not penetrate the Aegis lose those effects, they are cancelled and no longer active. They must be reapplied upon exiting the foreign Aegis.

You seem to think what I wanted was to convince you to come to my POW, which unnerves you.
I have trouble understanding why: As I've stated previously, such was not my goal, although I have preferences.
And if I have argued, it is not so much against you ruling one way or another as against the way in which you presented things and stated them.

See, when you say "Magi who enter a foreign Aegis of the Hearth with active effects that do not penetrate the Aegis lose those effects, they are cancelled and no longer active. They must be reapplied upon exiting the foreign Aegis."? Clear and cut, just what I asked. I would have had follow-up questions, but that's something else.

Yes, but it is relevant on other points, both in-game and, to quote you, in terms of saga cosmology.

To take back the somnifer exemple, as the Aegis dispells Magic, it means that, the moment the grogs were into a foreign Aegis, Somnifer's curse could have been lost, period.
Suppressing, OTOH, would have meant that the curse could have been unactive while under the foreign Aegis, but flared up once they'd exited it.
The same goes if someone is under a faerie curse, or if Fiona changes a guy into a pig.

I'd further ask, while we're at it, since it cancels magic, what happens if someone pulls what Arya did. That is, you're into a foreign Aegis, with a token, and someone removes your privileges. Are your active spells canceled if they can't penetrate the Aegis or are they unnafected?

As I said, not what I prefer, but it is more important for me to have a clear cut ruling, which was what I sought from the beginning:

Unless it penetrated the AoH as stated.

Thus the "could" :wink:

You asked a specific question about the implications of the ruling. If a magus's invitation to an Aegis is revoked, effects will be cancelled if they fail to overcome the effects of the Aegis. I thought that it would be implicit, and never stated it.

All other questions are deferred to the troupe for discussion.

So, which one's Hope and which one's Crosby?

This particular scene brings to mind a few things from different sources that I like about Alexei.

First is from Casino, when Joe Pesci's character is talking to the banker at Dinero's home. "I think it's only fair to tell you...what it is I do..."

The other would be from the Dark Tower series, the Wolves of the Calla book I believe. When Roland and his Ka-Tet meet some people who are trying to get help from Roland. Roland basically said. "We don't deliver messages. We speak with the thunder, we deal in lead." to make sure the guy knew what he was asking for.

Korvin is the straight man. More like Harvey Korman than Bing Crosby.

From Road to Utopia - Sums up Korvin.
Yeah? Well, I ain't afraid to die. I just hate being killed, that's all.

Regarding the Grogs, Alexei would be looking to have a small turb, 5-10, and have them either be Christian or perhaps desiring to become Christian. This could save some embarassment once they arrive and also be an act of fgood will to the church that the mundanes are not being neglected in their spiritual duty, which seems to be a point of contention with them right now anyway. Alexei is actually glad to be going.