1227: The Lotharingian Debate

Do the players want a Lotharingian Tribunal

  • Yes
  • No

0 voters

[color=blue]"You would prefer that our enemies be less of a challenge? My people have a saying: 'You can judge the worth of a man by the strength of his enemies.' If we are to have enemies, which is regrettably unavoidable, I would prefer enemies that are worthy of our notice, not ones that we can handle with a flick of the finger."

Fiona looks off into the distance. [color=blue]"Of course, ideally, I would prefer that everyone in the order would cooperate and be able to work toward the common good, but I'm also realistic enough to know that's never going to happen. Not peacefully."

SG:Edit I converted this to a poll. Please vote.

Do you believe that they would not be our enemies if we moved to another Tribunal? Confluensis and House Guernicus will be our enemies if we transported Mons Electi to Avalon. I am not a Tytalus that needs an enemy or a conflict but we would be foolish to ignore any victories we can get over Guernicus.

If Lotharingian is created lets look at the advantages that we would have by either the creation and Mons Electi joining it. Firstly, it would weaken Confluensis by them losing the fight to stop it's creation. Next, we would be in a Tribunal where Confluensis had little to no power. House Guernicus would have some but they would be somewhat on the same footing as us. Another advantage for us would be that I could start a Mercere House within the new Tribunal. A Mercere House would increase our power. It will not happen in Normandy because Confluensis has a strangle hold on that power.

Isen ponders a little..

I am quite undecided on that issue.

I tend to think that division is bad for the order, and exactly the kind of thing that the guernici would promote. Moreso, if we let confluenis with its own tribunal, it would have even more of a stranglehold there.
Nonetheless, I hear your arguments, and find myself swayed by then. I was quite against that new tribunal before, but no longer am.

Tell the truth? These politic bore me. I know these are important, but it could go either way, and it's muddy at best, contrary to Certamen or Wizard's War. And let's not fool ourselves: In the end, this is all that matters anyway.

Viscaria continues to listen, weighing everyone's arguments carefully.

Alexei is torying with a dagger as he alternately munches on the foods served at the meeting. He shakes his head after several moments. "I just don't understand what this really is about? Creating a new Tribunal? Is that not extreme? Are we not evenly derived now as we stand? We have an auspicious amount of Tribunals in the mystic number of 13...how might a 14th disrupt this? And...how does this help us in our conflict with Guernicus? Would that not distract us from this?"

He pauses to drink some wine before continuing. "I am not unreasonable, do we stand to gain much? Would we be well placed as an influential and powerful covenant? Would we have power in the making of the boundaries, the vis and the customs of this Tribunal? I would not want to enter into this new Tribunal as a minor member, we must be a considerable entry."

Viscaria speaks carefully. "It seems to me to be a matter of population and governance. Geography is just the measuring line we use to divide up the Order into divisions which we are capable of governing effectively. If Normandy is getting too big, then we should surely divide it twain."

If we are going to debate legal Tribunal formations and functions we could be here for a along time. I would like to debate the question on whether is it better or worst for Mons Electi that the Lotharingtian Tribunal be formed and what effect could have for us.

"Well, how could it possibly affect us? We are far too south of the proposed borders. We....or at least, Mons Electi has no allies up north that we know of. It doesn't affect our trade at all. We have no vis sources in that area. At most, it'll reduce the number of competitors at the Tribunal."

Not so. We are quite near the proposed boarders and could opt to join.

OOC: Now I am completely confused. Can someone update the map with the proposed border?

There's some rumor that Cunfin could decide to be part of the new Tribunal...Cunfin is the closest covenant to Mons Electi in the Normandy Tribunal
If a new Tribunal is established by the Grand Tribunal, covenants in Flanders are certain to join, possible Rhein covenants (Triamore, at least) could join, and if Cunfin joins, or even if it doesn't, it could curve around and pickup Mons Electi. It is unlikely that any Greater Alps covenants would leave the Greater Alps...

If Mons Electi leaves, that pushes the border to the tribunal as far south as Provencal, and some covenants could decide to change Tribunals to Normandy/Lotharingian... It's a huge unknown.

For Alexei, he's superstitious about changing the number of Tribunals, ironically that's his major hang up, aside from the effort. On the plus side, if Mons Electi were to become a pre-eminent Covenant within the Tribunal he'd find that rather attractive, especially if it included more status and resources. He doesn't see either arrangement as helping against Guernici too much though. if there is an advantage to be had and explained to him he might see the light.

After the maps are drawn out for Viscaria, she still seems a bit confused. "Alright, so I can see how owning a Mercere House would be valuable, but I've seen that sort of dogfight happen before. Iberia lost many of its redcaps and new blood came rushing in to fill the void. That sort of fight will definitely take time away from your research. As for the slap in the face to Confluensis, it will sting for a bit, but not long enough for us to do anything with -- the Grand Tribunal is after ours. And apparently, they've been dogging Phoenix as much as us, so Tribunal borders doesn't do much there.

"We are a rich, new covenant, with a dragon's horde of resources and nearly a quorum of magi in our own right. I say somebody should bribe us to take a position. "

There's a bit of a puzzle I've laid out about Cunfin...
This is one of those really subtle things.

And that's all I'm going to say...

Isen and Alexei understand each other :smiley:

And, also ironically, that's why Fiona is quietly leaning toward supporting Lotharingia. The Order currently has 13 Tribunals.

That's how Fiona feels about it, too. We each have our own position (whether strong or weak), and she's in favour of seeing who is willing to do or give the most to win us over.

This issue doesn't affect the number of political stories, but it might change the quality or character of them. Whether there is a new Tribunal is an issue the players will decide for the saga. I'll push the vote at Grand Tribunal one way or another the vote will be close. This may be a spoiler, but there doesn't seem to be any consensus towards the new Tribunal and whether ME will join it or stay in Normandy. There are advantages and disadvantages either way.

Speaking as a player, I would like Mons Electi to join the Lotharingian Tribunal.

Viscaria, on the other hand, has no position on this until somebody bribes us to.

If the story line with Confluensis had not happened, Korvin would have been on the fence. Now he sees a distinct advantage to being in the new Tribunal. I think Cunfin will follow us if we go because they are a vassel of Confluensis and they will want some base in the new Tribunal.

What are the legal requirements for forming a new Tribunal, anyway? I'm sure I read it somewhere...