1227 Tribunal Preparations

Where to host the Tribunal & Tournament

  • Inside the regio
  • Outside
  • Combination
  • Someplace far, far away

0 voters

Figured might as well go ahead and make a new thread, since this could get a little unwieldy (and scattered) otherwise.


There are 56 magi named in The Lion and the Lily and here. So, I'm looking at roughly 75 magi in attendance for the Tribunal in 1227. I don't know how big our regio is, but I would like to think that we could house that many in the regio and have the mortals none the wiser (as long as we're discrete in where he put the portkeys).

I also have an idea for what to do for the Host's Choice event for the tournament. Basically, it's like a combination of basketball, football (soccer), quidditch, and handball. Basically, you have a ball (say, a little bigger than a softball), made of wood, leather, and metal. Say, a metal core inside a wooden ball wrapped in leather. It's a game of one on one, with each magus casting a ReAn/He/Te (whichever's their best) to grab and move the ball magically, and Finesse (possibly with a bonus based on how well they cast their spell) to guide the ball into a net which is up off the ground and attached to a hoop. So, I guess it's got a hint of the Mayan ball game, too. It might be an individual entry single or double-elimination system. I'm thinking that, while the match might be first-to-five (or some other arbitary number like seven or 13 or 21), it would be resolved with just a couple of dice rolls in each match: one for the spell casting and one for the Finesse, with the magus with the highest Finesse score moving on.

Or we could go with magical caber-tossing, whichever. :laughing:

Anyway, that's my "it's-past-my-bedtime" suggestion. I'll try to come up with more while I'm slaving over the McGrill tomorrow.

THat made me think of pumpkin chucking for the distances that a mage might throw something.

So we could use a variant of wizard's tower that last a moon to house people. I think the regio is 50 ft above the hill but I do not know how big it is. We will need flat ground for the joust. Unless we import some giant flying critters for mounts :slight_smile:

Well, the Texas Renaissance Festival site is about 2250 feet by 1850 feet (900 paces by 750 paces, or 95½ acres, or 38⅔ hectares) for the site itself. With parking and camping, it's about 4800 by 4700 (1920 by 1880 paces), or 518 acres/210 hectares. And since the TRF is one of the largest in the country, I think that gives us something to work with visual-wise.

I'm thinking, with about 60 magi in the Tribunal (as near as I can tell), and figure maybe half that many "tourists" from other Tribunals, we're looking at close to 100 magi. If each magus has a retinue of three or four mundanes, that would be an additional 350 or so. So, a quick guesstimate is about 450. And bump it a bit for just in case, call it 500-550 houseguests.

I think Viscaria is going to come in reeeeeal handy, here.

And I'm not sure, but it kind of feels to me like the area around Autun isn't real civilized. Kinda sparsely populated, from what I can tell.

I'll see if I can rustle up I mean acquire through entirely legitimate means some Norwegian ridgebacks for us.

(written before I saw the separate thread)

I see that Viscaria will be dumping additional points into Prof:Architect over the next 5 years and getting some real-world Terram experience.

Talking about trade shows, gets me thinking that we should build something multi-tiered and partially underground. For example, if the classrooms were all accessible via stairs from the fair, we could basically double stack them:

Lvl 0: Fair grounds (vending), with stairs down at key points
Lvl -1 : Tunnel network, with stairs up and down (and security checkpoints)
Lvl -2 : Classrooms, only accessible from Lvl -1

Providing we find the right site, Baroque Peasant Hut (a ReTe spell version of the Tower) can be used to create accommodations, and Burrowfingers can be used to create the tunnels. Seriously, in 5 years, Viscaria could just build a town out of the wet earth. I think the real problem is food, water and sewage.

As far as numbers go -- you're talking about what, 200 magi, plus their retinue? How big is the average retinue?

After doing a bit of math comparing my experiences with conventions and Google Maps of those sites, I'd say these numbers are adequate. 2500x2000 feet should be more than enough for everything excluding housing, and safety concerns (ie, mage challenges being a safe distance away).

Seems like a good use for Shrouded Glen.

I'm surprised there are so few magi. I would have guessed about 200 magi total, though I have little basis for that number. At any rate, you've got to add another 75-150 vendors. What about security staff?

And yes, Viscaria has a few spells which will definitely come in handy for this. Not to mention things like enchanting Lamp Lighters.

How about a fighting pit? Viscaria would probably have to make a new version of Burrowfingers to carve out a stone ampitheater.

Hey, with the right sort of planning, we could actually build a traditional roman city, with central squares, etc. Maybe even duplicate a specific one. And then when we're done with the Tribunal'ing, we can move our grogs into it.

I'm planning for Isen to be good at rego (score of about 20-21), with an OK finesse (say, 4-6).
With ceremonial sponting, that should mean about any Rego spell of about level 20. This could prove in handy when used with craft magic. I can probably even rework the character to give him puissant finesse, if need be.

Should we make a spell to create furniture for the rooms? CrHe(An) might work. Just need it to last moon duration and cast it a lot. :smiley:

We need to make contacts with merchants for food stuff about that time. We also could build a large refrigerator/freezer to preserve a large amount of food.

As far as I could tell, this area of France is fairly sparsely popuplated until you get further into the Provence region, which is outside the Tribunal (anyone with more indepth knowledge of French populations, feel free to correct me). As you move further north and west from Autun things begin to develop. The Morvan, as a whole is very sparsely populated, but outside that basalt massif, there are communities, towns and cities. Mont Beuvray, again, as far as I could tell, is its own Massif, just outside the central Morvan massif. Mont Beuvray/Bibracte hasn't been inhabited since Augustus relocated the town to Autun.

That game with the ball has a lot of appeal to me.

Another one that might appeal to some from an artistic perspective and an exercise of finesse also would be a contest of creating things magically. We could do different categories like Rego and Creo, and then also separate it into the products created (weapons, art, food).

It might be best to create temporary buildings with magic, a Moon duration maybe;

Quarters for the Visiting Guest Cr He
R: Touch D: Moon T: Individual (+2 Size)
Base 3 R+1, D +3, T +2
Total Level: 25

Creates a wooden house that lasts for a Moon, it's comfortable and has three chambers, two are large and equal in size, the third is somewhat smaller, there are doorways but no doors. A Finesse roll is needed to make the house, low rolls will have warped wood, drafts, and leaky roofs plus will tend to make a lot of noise as people walk in it.

The main thing missing would be the fireplace, adding one would likely put 2 magnitudes onto it.

A Spell to make and install a door Cr (Re) He
R: Touch D: Moon T: Individual
Base 3 R+1 D: +3 T: 0 Requisite +1
Total Level: 20

Creates and installs a wooden door in a doorframe, there are no metal parts, the door is made from a single large plank of wood and fastens to the doorframe with wooden pegs and hemp rope fasteners as well as a hemp lock and wooden door handle. A Finesse roll is needed to create the door and a second roll to install it. Poor rolls lead to warped doors that don't fit well and tend to stick when closed.

I was initially going with Cr Te with an He requisite, but that would add an additional Magnitude and I think the wood only gives it some character.

Furnishing the Empty Room Cr He
R: Touch D: Moon T: Individual
Base 3 R +1 D +3
Total Level 15

Creates a simple but functional piece of furniture (table, chair, bed) made of wood and plant products (a bed will have a linen mattress and comforters, non-wool). A Finesse roll is required to create it, the better the roll, the more comfortable it is and the less likely it will fall apart when used.

We could switch these to Rego on all of these and save a bit on the Duration, but then the stuff is permanent, and we'd need a supply of the wood and other bits. Once the spells were created we could put them into Spell Tablet form if we want to have others cast it without learning.

Korvin could do the first and the 3rd. My Re would make it tougher for the 2nd one. I'm guessing that Jormungand could also do them. we should just divide them up one to a mage.

Laetitia will cast Bitter Taste of Betrayal, and then pop to Confluensis and ask Valerian if he has any lab texts for spells that aid in Tribunal accommodations.

Oh, I forgot to say that this also greatly appealed to me, though I think there should be 1-on-1 games on the first day, and then on the 2nd day, the magi are encouraged to pick 5-magi teams based solely on skill (and not political allegience). Just because passing that ball around would take some real skill.

Plus, if we keep the court, it'll be a great way for us to practice Finesse.

I shall hereby refer to this game as "falconball" until a better name is selected.

Viscaria disapproves in general of "artistic crafts" created solely by magic, so she counters this suggestion with a mundane version -- an exhibition of works created by magi entirely without the benefit of magic. Or perhaps one where magi and vassal can compete equally -- the competition divided into categories by skill level with the particular craft.

Viscaria comes pre-equipped with this spell:

The Baroque Peasant Hut (CT +23)
Rego Terram 25
The ReTe answer to Conjure The Wizards Tower, this spell shifts and shapes the ground into a building made of hard-packed earth. The resultant structure is partially underground and very unstable unless cast by a magus with an understanding of Architecture (or a very high Finesse -- this counts as Rego Craft Magic). The same spell can be used to return the building back to its original shape (approximately) Mastery 1: quiet
Base 3, +1 Touch, +3 Structure, +2 size

She also has a spell for digging underground, but it only affects earth. If someone else learns the Quarters for the Visiting Guest spell, then we double the number of magi building homes.

Moon duration means that all those spells have to be cast in the same season as the Tribunal itself, which may risk disastrous botches with no time to correct them.

Why not tapestries, instead of doors? They can be hung quickly and efficiently by grogs. I worry about using magic to solve everything. If you drop the Rego component, the spell becomes 15, and much more generally useful.

Again, I have a bit of hesitance when it comes to solving these sorts of problems via magic, but better to have it in our pocket than not.

It seems to me that qcipher is once again proving the basic premise of ArM: we can do anything. How we do it is far more important.

You need to master a spell before you can make it a casting tablet. (This provides an interesting idea for potential income for a wizard with Flawless Magic)

A couple of thoughts:

  1. We should make sure suggestions are coming from our characters, and not the players. If there are hierarchical concerns, these should be included in our consideration. As a group, we should also determine if our companions or grogs get involved in this process, and if so, to what degree.

  2. We should pick a Theme. While the underlying nuts and bolts are a mechanically interesting issue, the social and political ramifications of the event will have the most long term affect on our saga. The manner of creation and final appearance of the fair will color the opinions of the tribunal and the Order regarding who and what our covenant is. If we don't actively choose a theme, then most likely a theme will develop unconsciously as we build the component parts.

2-a) A basic difference that's already come up is Qcipher (Alexi?) arguing for moon-duration spells, while Viscaria advocates for creating a permanent site which will have a second value to the covenant after the fact. A theme would help us choose between these two equally valid directions. (OOC: I think the lifespan of plants vs stones plays a delightful note in this song -- the Terram specialist is advocating a much longer view and slower build-time, while the Herbam specialist thinks the entire thing can be seeded, sprout, prosper, and die away in the space of a moon.)

  1. We should pick a Location. Inside the regio, or out? In an Aura? In the side of the mountain? Entirely above ground? We should decide this before deciding how we want things to look.

  2. Who will create the spells we need, and who will cast them? And even before that, what spells do we need?

Couple of things to add... the regio is relatively unexplored. As a group, with the exception of Hitsumei, the magi and the players have been remarkably incurious about it.

The resources available from the Tribunal are the ones listed in The Lion And the Lily. I believe it mentioned The Shrouded Glen, but off the top of my head, I can't recall what else. There may be others whether mentioned or not, but it is unimportant to the discussion now.

To be clear, this is something I want to be done with as little involvment and prodding from me, as possible. If you need a resource, identify that, and make a plan to acquire it. Yes, there are resources available from the Tribunal, but it's not entirely my job to identify what those exact resources are, yet. I want the players to shape the story, and how you plan collectively will determine a lot of what will happen. Your plans will also identify resources or potential shortfalls. And as amul indicated, you can do pretty much anything. You have 5 years to plan. I will develop stories based on your plans.

This didn't happen. I'm trying to make myself as uninvolved in the process (at this time) as possible, and if this interaction did happen, the extent of it would likely be an enigmatic yes, followed by a disappearance and/or dismissal.

Laetitia tells the others that besides Intellego, Mentem, and Vim, her studies are all pretty generalized. She will divulge that due to the "highly cultivated nature" of her Gift, she masters all spells she knows, so if botchery come casting time is a concern, she can learn spells from others who might be better at invention than the casting.

Addendum to this thought: Since I'm just joining in the fun, and haven't even officially been invited by the council meeting yet, please note who your character is. I'm still learning you all. Even just something like:

Viscaria: "I am saying some stuff in my preferred color."

-- would be greatly appreciated.

Suggestion for Theme: Actually rebuild a version of ancient Bibracte, the governmental center of this area. A Roman city, complete with ampitheaters, baths, etc. Basillicas and temples to be used for the forums, classes, etc. Roman villas to house the magi and their retinues -- including the little shop area for any magi wishing to sell their goods. Though my Baroque Peasant hut could probably only create a single story version of that, and even then it would probably take 2 castings (although it's possible that with 4 castings, you'd have 2 stories above and a helluva a lot of tunnels underneath).

Well, but we definitely need your help in order to pick a location. Especially if the regio has been unexplored thus far.

I think that becomes the first question, then: inside or outside the regio? It seems we have plenty of space inside the regio, and we have no idea how many entrances lead into it anyway. I vote for inside the regio. It gives us plenty of space away from prying mundane eyes, an opportunity to explore the regio and possibly uncover more vis sources, etc. It's also entirely possible that we could find some pre-existing structures which we could then work into the project.

If we all spent the 1222.1 exploring the regio on our own, we should have an ample number of potential sites to choose from.

Additional useful stuff Viscaria is bringing :
Gunthar’s Broom PeTe25 (Gleam of the Freshly Polished Glass), unlimited uses - cleans rooms

Mirror of Eternal Repetition in a Bottomless Pool, CrIm36, 2/day - she can make something similar for safe-distance spectating.

The Prodigious Plant Pot (from Covenants) - which can be used for lumber

I really like the roman city idea as we are built on some roman ruins.

But I would want to mix the construction of the site between temp (moon duration) and permanent (Rego crafting). The reason is that the latter seems to have us relying on 1 mage for a lot and the former can be spread around.

I do not think we all need to explore the regio for a year. One or two mage could do it and present the findings ( and a map) to the council. Any more interesting stuff can be followed up on.

Boy, you lay down for a little nap and the thread just explodes. Okay, it was a three-hour nap, but still :smiley:

I think each section should have its own name, to distinguish it from the others. For example, the housing that we'll be building could be the "Mages' Village" (which I'm torn as to whether to make it temporary or permanent. Permanent would be better, I think, except if we have all these little villas sitting empty, people are going to want to crash at our place every freakin' weekend). We could build a temporary "Merchants' Quarter". A good-sized "List Field," something along the lines of a Roman ampitheater, with pavilions and stuff. And a separate area for duels, challenges, anything dangerous that we could call "Flambeau Field."

Phoenix had a lab text for Shrouded Glen (that came with Cygna). I don't know if Viscaria would have grabbed it during the exodus or not, though.

I would have thought so, too, but I checked again last night to make sure I wasn't missing something in Lion and the Lily that said how many magi each covenant has and only listing some of them. I'm still getting 52 that are named in the book, and 12 that are named in the saga forum (including our PC). Sidenote – because I'm bored and obsessive sometimes, I'm going through and doing a census of every character listed in the sourcebooks that I have and the sagas I've played in; so far, through seven books and the sites for Phoenix, Mystikae Eikona, and here, I've got 342 magi, of the 1,090 that I got by adding up the number of members given in the three Houses of Hermes 5e books. Still need to do The Sundered Eagle, the Shores of Albion forum, the other non-Tribunal books I have, and the 4e and 3e books.

I'm really liking this idea. And that would also take care of the seating problem, if she could also Rego/Finesse well enough to carve out rows of stone benches.

My concern (which echoes Fiona's concerns with doubling our size when Atsingani wanted to join in 1221) is that we'll become too big, too fast. Or too big, period. It's one thing to temporarily host a hundred or whatever magi and their entourages. It's another to have all this space and then expand to fill it when we may not have the resources to support them. Which may be just what somebody's hoping we do. Fiona would probably be in favour of doing the essentials permanently, with everything else temporarily knowing that we could make it permanent if we had to.

Or we could make sure we have enough craftsmen (either our own or trucked in from somewhere else) to make the furniture and call it largesse. "You see that gift basket on your bed, magus? It's yours. No...not the gift basket. The bed."

With her current Arts scores, Fiona could do the first one in two seasons, probably with experimentation. She can do the second in one, with experimentation, and the third in one season playing it safe.

I don't think there is a better name :smiley: Falconball it is! Sicut scriptum est, sic erit.

I like the idea of an A&S competition. Purely for word-fame, of course, unless we want to do something above and beyond the Hermetic Tourney. Maybe do a token-vote (each visitor gets a token, and they put it in a basket in front of the display they like the best), and the win-place-show gets maybe 5-3-1 pawns of vis if they're magi or something equivalent if they're not. Why, no, I'm not trying to turn this into an SCA event, whatever makes you say that?

Why do I get the feeling Fiona's going to get volunteered for this duty a lot? :laughing:

Well, since Mons Electi is built on ancient Roman ruins (at least on the mundane side), why not "Roman Holiday"? Try to go with a Roman feel/motif as much as possible, which a lot of magi try to go for anyway even if it is unconsciously. Alpine and Rhine magi are all about the nouveau-Rome style anyway.

I think we should try to keep as much of everything within the regio as we can, keep the muggles from getting suspicious.

Fiona is rather proficient in Herbam (aside from the obvious Muto and Corpus that comes from the transformational focus of her Tradition), and also has the cultivated nature that Laetitia mentioned with the study of her spells. However, she is not so good at spontaneous casting of spells...she is incapable of tiring herself with her spontaneous magic as others seem to be, which has the drawback of making her sponts noticeably weaker. However, she does invent spells and enchant items a little quicker, especially when she experiments.

I think by "all spending 1222.1 exploring" Amul meant everyone spending the spring season, not the whole year.

If you wanted to build a permanent Roman style bath house on the site I would say go for it. But making buildings to hold 100+ people in some style is not something that really needs to be permanent.

I'm sorry if this wasn't clear earlier (I'm at a friend's house for the week, and she has children who are constantly vying for my attention), but I agree that getting more magi to do the work would be great. But we either need someone to invent the Moon spells, or have Viscaria write out her lab text for Baroque Peasant Hut and Burrowfingers, or both.

Mixing the construction between moon-duration and permanent seems like a good compromise. Do we want to mix the styles within specific areas as well, or leave certain areas to be entirely Rego-crafted, and others to be entirely moon-duration? Although, as things stand right now, Viscaria is presenting herself as basically a mage-for-hire to do all this work for you. We haven't discussed terms in-game yet, but I was thinking of somewhere around 12-15 seasons over the next 5 years focused on that task.

Oh, and I meant, we all spend one season (the same season for everybody) to explore the regio. Not the entire year. Yes, we could do it with fewer or slower, but (meta-gaming) this gives us a more interesting and thorough exploration of the regio.

I think you've got good ideas for the different parts of the fair. Again, do we want each section to be moon or permanent, or mix it up in each part?

I mentioned before the idea of building part of it underground with Perdo and Rego Terram. Did anybody have any feelings on that, one way or the other?

As I understand things, in Bibracte, the Phoenix covenant successfully made it into summer and is going strong. Or at least, that's how I'm playing Viscaria until I'm told otherwise.

I'm not sure how we'd handle things like "Phoenix has a copy of..." but I only have 75 build points of stuff to bring with, and all of it ended up being personal acquisitions, nothing that belonged to the covenant as a whole. JL might agree that they'd be willing to trade favorably with us because of Viscaria. On the other hand, since we haven't defined it one way or another, JL could decide that Phoenix actually exiled Viscaria and they're all quite pissed at her. It hasn't been decided yet.

Regardless, if we're doing this inside the Regio, I'm not sure how useful that particular spell would be.

Well, I assume that the books leave room for additions personalized to the saga. But suggesting that the book only lists maybe 1/4th of the tribunal seems....unlikely. So....we're talking about 100-ish magi as an outside possibility. Call it 400-500 attendees total, plus vendors. Say 500-600?

Though, put this way, the idea that we've got 12 magi means we've got nearly 20% of the tribunal right here. o.O

PS - You're mixing canon and non-canon sources for your census! The devil!

She's got Finesse 1 (Rego). What stat does it usually get paired with? Perception? So she's currently at Per 0 + Finesse 1 (Rego). Definitely needs to work on that, though it's possible that Baroque Peasant Hut can be used to do this, since it hollows out and hard-packs the earth, in which case it becomes Int 3 + Prof:Architect 2 (BPH Designs) = 6. If she submits her designs for approval by the covenant, we might even be able to call it a simple die rather than a stress die.

Viscaria would counter that the trick would be maintaining the space without expanding into it except as needed. Also, having a permanently established site that could host a tribunal's worth of magi might have political value that your covenant finds valuable. On the other hand, it might be political capital that you wish to stay well away from.

I'd rather we hired craftsmen to make the furniture and then provide it as largesse to our own citizens after the fair. It would certainly enhance our reputation among the local populace.

If she's experimenting, then why not also send out feelers for pre-existing versions of these spells, particularly ones whose experiments have yielded intriguing side effects?

Lists we need to make: Spells to Create/Acquire, Spells to transcribe for others to learn, Items to Enchant, Purchases to Make

If the rules for creating Items of Quality weren't so low-powered, I'd consider having Viscaria press to learn that mystery. Instead, I suggest we find an amenable Verditus from the far end of the Order, and order some from him. As it costs 1 Vim to make each Item of Quality, they'd probably cost 3 Vim apiece to buy.

(once again, I scoff at any "virtue" which allows me to spend a max of 1 vis/season to use it)

Well, since Mons Electi is built on ancient Roman ruins (at least on the mundane side), why not "Roman Holiday"? Try to go with a Roman feel/motif as much as possible, which a lot of magi try to go for anyway even if it is unconsciously. Alpine and Rhine magi are all about the nouveau-Rome style anyway.
Well, it's hardly a Holiday. This is a potentially momentous occasion, with the tribunal border issue looming ahead. It would make sense to pick a theme or slogan which acknowledges it, even if not taking a side.

I think we should try to keep as much of everything within the regio as we can, keep the muggles from getting suspicious.
I agree as well. Perhaps we need to set up some polls to get a clear vote on these subjects?

Viscaria tells everyone that she excels at Terram and enchanting. Although she avoids discussing any other Arts proficiencies, someone paying attention may notice that she's pretty eager to collect Intellego and Vim spells, in addition to the obvious Terram spells.


Please keep this sub-thread clean. If you're going to comment, change the Subject line. Otherwise, feel free to add items or additional lists as needed.

Spells to Create/Acquire,
Quarters for the Visiting Guest CrHe 25
A Spell to make and install a door Cr(Re)He 20
Furnishing the Empty Room CrHe 15

Spells to transcribe for others to learn,
Burrowfingers (Based on Pit of the Grasping Earth) PeTe 20 by Viscaria, for _____
The Baroque Peasant Hut Rego Terram 25 by Viscaria, for _____

Items to Enchant,

  • Lamp Lighter (CrIg, Unlimited Uses, Creates daylight)
  • ? The Hearthfire Wand ? (moon duration building-maker)
  • ? Flatscreen TVs for watching sports ?

Purchases to Make

  • furniture - bed, table, chairs
  • doors
  • food?