1228-1229 OOC

(( Sorry, JL, I'd have to disagree with you, somewhat. For a Light wound, yes, you're right. But a Medium wound or higher would be considered 'threatening to life and limb', at which point pikkuach nefesh kicks in and almost any other religious consideration, including laws of kashrut, goes by the wayside.

Vis collected with pagan rites would remain problematic. Some Corpus vis would be problematic: anything derived from a human corpse that wasn't gathered with the purpose of healing that specific person would be out. But other sources of Corpus vis would be OK: stinkhorn mushrooms, say, or mandrake plants, or Corpus vis that does not require killing someone to collect it. Corpus vis collected from human-like creatures (ogres or goblins, say) would be a gray area. But as long as the wound/disease is life-threatening, and the gathering of vis did not involve murder, idolatry, or incest, almost anything goes.))

((He would be in trouble in the short term her until we lay up some kosher vis. The Creo is collected from a pagan temple so that is out. The corpus is from a grave.))

I don't agree that a medium or even a heavy wound is dangerous to ife and limb. For one, if I'm going to take off an arm, I'm going to take off the arm and inflict a wound, at the same time. So, if the limb is already lost, it must be magically restored, and therefore it is not prevented. Further, medium and heavy wounds are not life threatening on their own. Only when the character drops to incapacitated does it become life threatening. And at that point, presuming it's Pinhas, may not have the ability to object, and it is something done to him, without his consent, and he has not violated any laws. He may have guilt over it, but that's another thing altogether. He can probably rationalize it away...

Pikuach Nefesh is about what the observant Jew is allowed/required to do to save a life. Of course, it's implicit this includes one's own life. And if it came down to it, I could envision incapacitated meaning something like unable to do something, not completely unconscious, and he could give consent to whatever means and methods might be used to save his life. But Hermetic magic healing rituals do much more than save a life. They restore the person back to whole, and skip over recovery times. That's a bit more than saving a life, isn't it? It's more likely that life saving measures employed by Tranquillina or use of the CrCo guidelines for aiding recovery are more in line with Jewish Law.

Generally agree, except as stated above.

Okay, we're talking about two different things here, and it's helped me clarify my thinking. Three different things, actually.

  1. From a game perspective standpoint, a Medium wound isn't dangerous to life and limb unless it goes bad (failed Recovery rolls, etc). From a perspective of what Pinchas knows, being stabbed or bitten by an adder is dangerous to life and limb because it has a potential to turn septic. So I semi-arbitrarily interpreted "a wound that has a 50% chance of killing you if untreated" (which is a halakhic guideline somewhere, though I can't find the reference) as a Medium wound. And "danger to life and limb" has been extended halakhically to substantial pain, loss of quality of life, etc. (It's been extended as far as allowing pregnant women to satisfy food cravings even if they're non-kosher: eating pork on Yom Kippur, things like that.)

  2. If he is incapacitated and unable to give consent, then any means may be employed to save his life and he specifically doesn't have to feel guilty about it. It's the "do seconds count" guideline. But you are correct now that I think about it: if seconds do NOT count, then yes, Tranquillina's rituals or the recovery-aiding guidelines would probably be more in line with halakha.

I'm missing C or 3. :smiley:

Sure, from a game perspective, the player knows it's dangerous. The character might not have the information to know if it's life threatening, though. And he might be aware of things back at the covenant that can help him recover very easily. So It then becomes very reasonable for Pinhas to come to some mental calculation that recovering with magical aid is better than having his body restored to being whole.

The challenge, is that one needs to convert vis to silver. Doing it through Redcaps is inefficient, and incurs rather large exchange rates. While it isn't widely known that Mons Electi has cash flow problems, it's not too difficult for Redcaps to figure it out. So the price in vis might be excessively high and it might also be in preferred Arts, either or both. Such a transaction is going to be a combination of things, and the reason I haven't opined on it, is because it's going to rely upon some bargaining with a Redcap to do the deed. The journey to acquire these texts will be long and arduous. What do you have for him? :smiley:

Everything you said makes sense to me ... except the last question :slight_smile: Are you asking me to propose a deal?
Tranquillina offers three pawns of vis, Herbam if she gets to choose, Corpus and Mentem also fully on the table, counteroffers welcome. Her argument is that the Redcap information network greatly facilitates locating such books, and their portals make travel a breeze, particularly in the Roman Tribunal where such texts are likely to be found. She proposes a pawn of vis per mundane book for the Redcap's trouble, and a third pawn of vis for arranging the payment onsite in local currency, which she acknowledges is another favor. She'll also throw in a few bottles of wine as additional bribes and door-openers :wink:

Alternatively, we could turn this into a story if you want - either Tranquillina can try to acquire the books herself, or maybe even Renaud is willing to take on the challenge/favor. The initial vis proposal was an OOC attempt to not worry about doing this in stories, thinking that you have a lot on your plate; but I have no problem with it.

It doesn't have to be a major story, but there's enough here that I want some rolls, and negotiation. Whether it happens between you and I or you and jebrick doesn't matter to me. Renaud has to nominally do some Redcap work, so this isn't a bad thing for him to do, and would further reinforce his lackadaisical approach to the job... :smiley: He just seems to luck into these lucrative jobs, somehow...

Drawing from what little staff we have stats for, Roberto requests the following grogs for his staff :smiley:

(Some of these are characters created by other people and I may have missed some. So if you want in or out or don't care, let me know)

Alabaster Expedition Personnel Roster
Roberto - Magus, Expedition Commander
Cidito - Cat, Magus Familiar
Pinchas - Rabbi, Advisor
Carlos - Specialist
Johan - Assistant Specialist
Pedro - Specialist
Ache - Assistant Specialist
Alberto - Sergeant
Allen - 1st Corporal
Villaume - 2nd Corporal
Deykin - Grog
Miroslav - Grog
Wen - Scout

Sure, Miroslav can come along.
You want Pinchas too?

I had a feeling he was the guy you mentioned earlier. Sure :smiley:
I will revise the roster using the edit function. Your rank will be Advisor.

I'd like to make Vincent a Captain if that character gets approved. There has been no discussion after the revision was made.

He is likely to be approved, but I would prefer to see him go along on another story, which lets you focus on your magus and the gaggle of grogs in Roberto's story.

FYI, in case you aren't watching The Misteress Spanks Twice thread any longer (or never did)... Cumhachd has given gifts...

Let C be the casting score.
If we apply the -10 before dividing, the CT for a spontaneous spell is (C-10)/2.
The CT for a formulaic spell is (C-10).
So for a spontaneous spell to be easier to cast than the formulaic version, we get:
(C-10)/2 > (C-10)
(C/2) -5 > C - 10
C/2 > C - 5
-C/2 > -5
C/2 < 5
C < 10
The exact point where it's easier to cast a spontaneous spell than the formulaic version is when your Casting Score ( Stamina + Aura + Te + Fo) is less than 10, which means you can't fast-cast that spell anyway, since the -10 penalty will put you in the negative.

To clarify, I'm not arguing, I'm just a math geek. :smiley:

I was told there would be no math!
Something seems off, and I probably need to take a rigorous approach to it. If 10 is x, where x is always the penalty from words/gestures, you come to it where all values of x>c. Which seems wrong.

I don't have an objection to the fast casting penalty coming off the CS before dividing. I've limited fast casting enough. It shouldn't be intrinsically easier to work a spontaneous spell you don't know without words and/or gestures than a formulaic one, which it actually is when you do the arithmetic. I cast a spell I don't know without words or gestures, spending a fatigue level, I've subtracted 7.5 from the casting total. I cast a spell I do know without words or gestures and I have to subtract 15. That just seems wrong, and it is effectively saying that all things being equal casting a spell without words or gestures is easier if you don't know it.

I'm not quite sure I see it that way. Let's say you're trying for a level X spell, without words or gestures. Your casting score for a Formulaic spell would need to be X+15. Your casting score for a Spontaneous spell (if we are subtracting the penalty before dividing by two) would need to be 2X+15. How is a spontaneous spell ever going to be easier?

What you're actually saying (I think) is that it's harder to adapt a formulaic spell to variant casting than it is to do the same thing to a spontaneous spell. That kind of makes sense to me, since with a spontaneous spell you're varying everything anyway.

Actually, arguing against myself, the formulaic CT only needs to be X+5, since formulaics can still be cast if their CT is no greater than -10 of the level.

I believe I just played a version of this game a few weeks ago at a party, it was called Werewolf.

It's based on that, yes. Actually, it's based on a version of Werewolf called 'Thing'. I had to make adaptations to the rules, though, in order to hide the fact from the participants that ALL of them are 'Werewolves'.