1228 Kriegeist ex Tytalus

Proposed item and effect:

A cane made from four types of wood inlaid together with parquetry – Cedar, Hornbeam, Hickory, and Walnut; the handle is a sphere made of bronze, with a crown inlaid in gold; inside the sphere is a reservoir of mercury.

CrMe 35 Base 4 R: Voice (+2) D: Sun (+2) T: Group (2, +1 Size) – The people within earshot of the cane tapping on a hard surface feel a sense of friendliness toward the person holding it. (Unlimited uses: +10)

For the effect, which (if any) of the following shape/material bonuses apply?

Walnut: +4 mind
Crown: +3 control people, +5 gain respect, authority

There are a few issues with the item-

  1. parquetry is used primarily in flooring because it is about how to inlay wood into patterns- as such the wood needs to be inlaid on something, it does not itself form the structure of an item.
  2. a crown on a spherical handle is going to dig painfully into your hand.
  3. mercury is rare, expensive, and toxic- getting someone to put it into a spherical handle will be difficult, also keep in mind that a bronze sphere that is used routinely is not expected to be durable to the point of remaining sealed for long periods of time. The artist/craftsperson would prefer to make a solid bronze sphere or one filled with air if material is an issue.
    As such getting the underlying object made will be at minimum difficult (the wood as described is impossible, but that can be worked around)
    For a spell to affect "people within earshot" would be sensory magic, a bjorner mystery which cannot be enchanted.
    "a sense of friendliness" is too vague and too broad of an effect. Since the effect does not work bonuses are irrelevant.

Will simplify the item.

Re the effect, what I mean by friendliness is, The emotion: I like that guy.

It doesn't effect everyone that hears the tap, it effects everyone within voice range of the tap.

Target group has to be directed towards a single defined group "everyone in range" is not a target.

The definition of "friendliness" is still too broad/vague. It seems to me that this is searching for a word that says "can counter the effects of the gift in any situation" without coming out and saying it.

It makes sense for the character to try and overcome the effects of the Gift, but you can't expect to have it handed to you that easily.

I was actually assuming the gift wasn't able to be overcome with Creo Mentem (as opposed to Perdo or Rego); what I'm going for is the move from "I really don't trust this person" to "I don't trust this person, but I like him and I'll be nice to him." I felt the need to come up with something like this since he's going to need to go on stories for his initiations.

I'm not sure how to address the targeting thing. What do you think about Aura of Inconsequence on HH:TL 73 ?

Or does it work to say you choose a group of people within voice range to be affected when you tap? I've always been uncertain how you choose targets with items, if you don't have a InMe effect built into the item.

For that you have two options- find a quaesitor willing to teach it to you are redesign the spell with an actual target of structure- which will then affect people within the structure you are in when you cast it. of course if you are casting it on an object the repetitive casting option does exist, but the target for that spell is specified to be non-hermetic.
As to "I don't trust him but I like him anyways" is still countering the effects of the Gift- though the Gift is described as inspiring mistrust and envy, stacking general reaction bonuses against it is still a direct counter (as opposed to, for example, air of rightful authority, where the bonuses are conditional to the authority the magus supposedly wields, rather than affecting how the feel about the magus themselves)

In terms of saying "when you tap the cane you target a group" does that require a linked Mentem effect to scan the wielder's intended targets?

Not necessarily, it could for example be the closest group- however that might wind up targeting the same group repeatedly, or the group who the vane is pointed in the direction of, ignoring the vertical dimension.

Ok. I will try to figure out a better definition for the emotion; you're saying "make them like the wielder" is too vague, right?


So now off work; looking in Art & Academe at emotions, the list of emotional states in that book (p. 43) is below; do you buy into this?

Gaudium (joy, bliss) is beneficial to all complexions for it is a perfect balance of the humors;
Laetitia (delight, love) inflames the blood and promotes moisture;
Tristitia (sorrow, gloom) promotes melancholy and dryness;
Ira (anger, hatred) is hot and infects the choler;
Timor (fear, worry, jealousy) produces phlegm and coldness

I think what gets close is if the spell creates Laetitia (delight, specifically) directed at the caster.

A better effect for counteracting the gift might be to destroy Ira and Timor directed at the caster, but I need to build with Creo just because of the numbers.

Those are emotions listed in arts and acadame, but they are listed there for their effects on humors, not as an example of how people feel about a person or thing.
Consider existing spells in canon- aura of rightful authority inspires obedience
The Quaesitorial spell "trust me" creates a counter-balancing trust though it does not impact envy.
Aura of inconsequence makes people overlook the magus and thus prevent the impact of the Gift from being triggered.
These are a better place to start the character's research than trying to figure out how to word a spell from references in art and acadame to do something that the rules explicitly say cannot currently be done. Use these as a basis, do research, and aim for the breakthrough you really want instead of trying to get approval to do it without one.
Also "My new best friend" from Guardian's of the forest creates a false memory of friendship giving a +3 personality trait to balance the gift...

I'm just trying to create an emotion. You keep saying that emotions I name aren't valid, so I looked for a canon list of emotions. I fail to see where I've jumped a shark into trying to do something impossible under Hermetic Theory.

Maybe it's my impression, but it feels like you are trying to undo the effects of the Gift with magic. By canon the spells that I have listed are as close to accomplishing this that can be done at this point- the idea that you are going to search through arts and acadame and come up with a spell you can simply have done without any breakthroughs that beats the best that can be done is inherently contradictory.
As to the emotions in question the problem is that they are basic emotions like joy- you feel joy as an emption, you don't feel joy towards someone.
Fundamentally though is the feeling that instead of trying to discuss what you are trying to accomplish and how your character would go about it you are simply throwing attempts at me to do what it feels like should not be doable, which strikes me as a hostile approach instead of cooperative.
Topically speaking you are approaching one of the boundaries of hermetic capability, and that deserves more discussion than just throw it against the wall and see what sticks- instead of simply asking what your character can have done I think there needs to be a focus on the outcome of what your character attempts, or what your character might expect if they were to attempt certain approaches.

I see. I didn't mean to be hostile, sorry if it came off that way.

The reason I'm not just saying I want to counteract the effects of the gift is that it seems like it would have to be Perdo to destroy the negative feelings, or Rego to make a natural change in them.

Creo is an inferior approach, but because of the character build it's the only option. I'm not trying to do better than the spell that counteracts the gift, just come up with an alternate method of avoiding being burnt at the stake.

What I am trying to accomplish is not to offset the effects of the gift with created emotions, because that seems impossible, adding an emotion won't make the envy and distrust change or go away. So what I'm trying to do is create emotions that will make people behave in a more positive way, despite their misgivings.

I looked for a list of emotions just because my previous language was unclear, so I was trying to find a clearer way to name the emotion.

I see that "liking" is part of the complexions, which does indeed require a minor breakthrough to achieve through corpus; that's why I changed what I was proposing.

When I was saying delight directed at the caster, I misspoke. I should have said linked, I guess? What I meant was, "I feel delight, because of that person."

CrMe base 4 to create emotion is described in art and acadame as creating emotion without an associated stimulus where what you are trying to do is cause an association-
there are a number of MuMe spells which alter perceptions- aura of ennobled presence, aura of childlike presence, are based on MuMe base 3 which art & acadame describes as being able to alter an emotional reaction.
creo mentem can create memories which can (for example) make someone believe you are a trusted friend. It can create items of cognition, but estimation is what needs to be affected. In order to create an emotional response or association aside from altering memory would require some degree of breakthrough, though probably not a large one.

I see. I didn't understand that without a stimulus meant you couldn't create an association; I was also looking at Rising Ire and Panic of the Trembling Heart in the main book as examples for CrMe emotions with associations.

Can I just assume that on stories he had a grog or two to insulate him from interaction with mundanes?

That is fine

First experiment - posting here for you to review before I do the rolls. This is for original research on warping.

Side question: Does the CrVi guideline for warping keep going up at +1 warping per magnitude, or does it stop at +3?

Kriegeist's Baneful Magic Words - CrVi 35 Base 15 R: Voice (+2) D: Mom T: Group (+2) - Target gains 3 Warping Points

Experimentation for Research – Gain understanding of how an influx of magic causes warping.