2.4 - OOC

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Phoenix - Rise from the A
141

I'm going to try and set things straight here. I think I have been less than clear about my seeming agressive nature in response to this particular topic. I want it clear, I have absolutely no ill-will towards you personally, Arya. I am trying to understand your character's motivations. I think they could be a lot of fun to play out. There are aspects to them, that could make them not so fun to play out, too. Such as getting caught dissembling to fellow PCs. This kind of character requires a lot more work on the player's part. I share this out of previous experience.

Arya, Azura's backstory is that she's unreliable. It suggests that she is more than willing to play fast and loose with the truth in the way that is most convenient to her at the time. The Fixer and I, as players, have told you that her 6th magnitude Aegis is ineffective. Your character has offered to cast the 6th magnitude Aegis for the covenant[1], should she be accepted as a member. I think it's fair to say that those are the facts. These all things that are written, either in character or about the character in play to date.

Given those facts, it is entirely fair that I, as a player, question your character's motivation. Right now, it appears she is perpetrating a con. I am extremely aggressive in questioning you about your character's motivations because it helps me understand how to play Ra'am in response to Arya. In troupe style play, it's very common that players know things and then RP their characters as if they don't know them. Ra'am doesn't know Azura, but she's a Magus, and a Mercere (they don't prey upon the Order!) so he'll take her at her word. But, he's smart (Int 3), and he's extremely educated (Artes 6, Philo 4, MT 8+2), he's happily married, and he's not subject to her feminine wiles. There is a high degree of probability Azura's Aegis will be discovered as less than effective, it is fairly reasonable that Ra'am could even notice this right away, that's entirely up to amul. If Ra'am doesn't see anything that concerns him, I will play him that way. He'll happily go into the lab and learn other things, get it set up, spend one of his 7 possible seasons on refinement, whatever. However, if Ra'am sees things amiss, he will be all over Azura like white on rice, and not in a way she'd prefer. :wink: His family's safety is a high priority for him. Once that risk has been reasonably mitigated (to his mind), he's free to concentrate on other things.

I write all this out, because this is your situation as you've created it. I want to understand where you are taking your character. We (Fixer and I) informed you that your Aegis is ineffective. If Azura isn't completely forthright about the capabilities of her Aegis, we can only assume, as players, that it is your intention, as a player, that she not be. By your own description of the character Azura is dishonest, it means you have to step up and be extremely detailed with us about Azura's intentions, and trust us to play to her as she presents herself. It also means that should she get found out, you have to be prepared for actions that may be less than pleasant for her. Censure, fines, etc. and so on. Were I in your shoes, I'd expect no less be asked of me.

[1] In her proposal to Heims no mention of this being part of a WC was made, you offered that you would cast the Aegis. At this point, I don't believe anyone knows WC. To get to a WC capable for your level of Aegis, we'd have to have three people learn the 20th level WC, which would take 2-3 months. It's possiblethat Ra'am could invent a 20th level WC in two months while two others learn it from the lab text. If it's your intention that her Aegis be cast as part of a WC, you should make that clearer.

142

Flaky != con artist.

Nor is an Aegis with ~10 penetration "ineffectual", and if y'all consider it to be so, maybe you should have changed it from the RAW to be so in the first place.

Having others learn WC would only mean that the ritual would cost the full amount. Might as well just use the extra vis to boost penetration on the casting.

143

"A gregarious but highly unreliable woman, there are many conflicting stories about Azura's identity". That doesn't say flaky to me. It suggests dissembling and taking advantage. Would you characterize her as a flibbertigibbet?

Not blocking creatures with might be an issue, no? Regardless you, the player, know the issue. Your character would, too. I've already stipulated that it has some use, but it isn't fully effective as a character might reasonably expect. Not disclosing the limitation of the Aegis Azura can cast is certainly within the reasonable realm of "unreliable". If you want to keep the 30th level Aegis and present it like she never thought about it "that way" you can certainly do so. It still requires you to be upfront with how you intend to proceed. And could still have consequences once discovered.

That is an option. Sure. Cost in vis might be a secondary concern to a covenant without an Aegis, though.

144

Actually "flaky" is exactly what it meant. She's one of those people who says, sure, I'll absolutely help you move this weekend, because we're great friends. Then doesn't show up.

I have no idea what a "flibbertigibbet" is.

The "conflicting stories about her identity" is because she's widely known to be the daughter of a Goliard Redcap, but she herself is a Mutantis. That she's an intersection of two lineages would never be disclosed outside of the House.

Nowhere near so much as not having an Aegis.

You certainly have a different expectation of an average magus' abilities than the Hermetici themselves would.

To be considered for archmagus status, you must have invented a spell of seventh magnitude. Not "have invented it in one season," but have invented it at all. For the sake of argument let's say that takes the average archmagus candidate two seasons. That indicates a casting total (excepting ridiculously high MT scores) somewhere in the neighbourhood of 50. That's for a magus who is old enough to be considered for archmage status-- a station held by VERY select few within the Order.

Point is, you have what looks like a 15-year-old Redcap showing up, who offers to cast a lv 30 Aegis. Now, either she's exceptionally skilled at Creo Corpus and had a phenomenal longevity ritual at a very young age in addition to being able to cast a lv30 ReVi and is thus so far beyond the average level of the schlubs at Phoenix that there's no chance she would pass herself off for being some average Redcap unless she just Mentem'ed everyone into forgetting who she is, or, hey, she's pretty young and probably learned that Aegis from her parens. Occam's Razor, buddy.

Mercurian Magi are known for getting together in big clumps and casting Wizard's Communion so they can cast rituals together. It would be very rare indeed for any Mercurian to bother boosting their casting totals for rituals-- because THEY NEVER HAVE TO.

Your characters would have no reason to expect a phenomenal penetration on a sixth magnitude ritual from a Mercurian WHO LOOKS LIKE A TEENAGER. Your continued insistence that they would is patently ridiculous.

145

Please, can't we all be pals?

Well, not totally.
It is ineffective at keeping beasties out (the active "ward" effect).
It still protects against spells, both foreign and internal (the "parma" effect) with a quite good potency.

Although I consider the ward effect to be the most important part of an aegis, the others are quite useful, too.

Actually, given the need for aegis to penetrate, it stands to reason that magi would assume that most characters, especially young magi, can't cast that with full effect on their own (it'd require a casting total of 60), and that Azura's level 30 aegis would be cast through Wizard's Communion.
=> Our characters don't have to feel cheated if Azura don't have a CT of 60 and we need to use WC. This is normal!!! They'd probably expect it, in fact. I don't feel her as conning our characters in any way.
=> If it may help you, I think that such a thing (as well as all my calculations below) would be obvious to Ra'am given his high level of MT.

WARNING: Serf's parma here.
We need WC of sun duration IIRC.
Thus, the sum of their (lvl -10) must be at least 60 (lvl -10 because of the duration).

Assuming Azura's lvl 30 WC is designed for Ritual use, it stands to reason that it'd be a D: Sun version. So she already manages 20 (30-10) of the levels we need.
That means that, if she writes down her WC for Ra'am (he can learn it IN 1 season), they'll manage 40 out of 60 levels.
Not counting Jaime, that leaves Hiems, Amos, Viscaria and Cygna to do the other 20. They can do that by learning a WC of average level 15, with D: Sun. Azura or Ra'am can invent one in just a season, and we can learn it the next

So, when casting Azura's Aegis, the lvl 30 would be divided by 6, to a level 05.
Azura will thus have a penetration of Re 9+3 + Vi 8 + Sta 02 + Mastery 02 + Artes Liberales 2+1 + Aura 5 + Pen 1+1 = 34 - lvl 05... + die roll!!! We make it to 30!!! I'm amazed that this is possible to easily.
So, in just a few seasons, we could be able to cast reliably and with full penetration a lvl 30 aegis :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: That's great!

What's more, we'll have achieved that together, and actually used WC to great effect in casting the Aegis. I find that awesome! :smiley: And much more mythic that a lone magus casting WC while the others just sit there.

Even on her own, Azura can reasonnably hope to manage a Penetration of 10 (34 - 30 + die), which is quite good enough already. In a few years, alone, she'll be able to manage a penetration of 20! Although, by that time, we'll probably be able to use WC to cast our lvl 40 Aegis with enough penetration.

Hey!!!
Not a bad idea!!!
lemesee...

Aegis 30 => 6 pawns of vim vis.
IIRC, if Azura casts alone, she uses 3. Using 3 more to boost penetration, the can reliably achieve a penetration of at least 10, often 15, which is already quite good! By the end of the year, for the same cost, she might be able to achieve 15-20 on her own :open_mouth:
Compared to a lvl 20 Aegis, this is slightly inferior for now, but would quickly become better :smiley:

Also while less effective than the WC option, this has the advantage of safety, since Azura has mastered her Aegis :smiley:

Oh.
I know someone like that... :confused: And it's quite annoying, which is also why I'm taking some distance.

146

Sorry, I found it unclear because unreliable shared the same sentence as information about her identity. I conflated the two in error and came up with con artist. I admit that.

Umm, some might contend that this is a big part of having an Aegis. Magi tend to get disturbed when they have to intervene in push/scare/kill monsters away.

I don't understand how you arrive at this conclusion. Perhaps it's a difference in player philosophy.

That is part of it, but you must also meet the challenge set forth by another archmage and have fame for completing some deed that the Order as a whole would recognize in addition to inventing a 7th magnitude spell that benefits the Order as a whole. That's taken from Gardians of the Forest, pg 24.

Umm, nothing about her appearance relating to this is in your description. The best I can find is you have Unaging. I do not see your apparent age listed anywhere. Occams razor cuts both ways. I, as a player, don't have information you have. And appearances within the order can be deceiving. You could be fae, for all Ra'am knows and possess vast powers beneath a child-like exterior.

I don't really understand what you mean by this when taken in context of your character's offer. On one hand, you're character is offering to do the Aegis single-handedly, and on the other hand you bring up Azura's background of working with outher mercurian magi. So, her experience could tell her she needs additional assistance to cast it with full effectiveness, but her flakiness is making her forget about that?

Thanks for making that clear. Again, nowhere can I see that you've described her as looking like a teenager. Note, I'll admit I'm discounting the picture. The main reason for that is all those characters appear to look young. That you're offering to cast it, and we can discuss any lack of penetration in council is sufficient for me as a player. I can see how your character would offer the Aegis, not thinking or caring about the warding effect. Can you see how my character might find that important? It's much better to hash all this out OOC than get into it in character, since we both have a better understanding of our character's motivations.

147

Granted, I should've said not totally effective. And I'm honestly not angry over this. I am trying to get a bead on a character. I erred in thinking that this character is dishonest, I am now satisfied that she is flaky. I don't have any ill-will towards Arya, and if I can now ascribe character actions to flakiness that will be RP'd differently than discovering dishonesty, of course.

She offered to cast it herself. And OOC, Arya then mentioned that it will cost more vis, so I think it's safe to say it was her intention for her character to cast it single-handedly. We can debate the effectiveness in council now. That's the point I was trying to get to. I think you and Arya have given me sufficient reason to get to that point that Ra'am could reasonably question the efficacy of her Aegis.

The Sta is 1, otherwise, your CS is correct.

I'm all for the WC route! There is a 20th level WC in the library, it says nothing about duration, can we presume it has Sun duration? If the WC lab text can be retconned to have Sun duration, it would provide 10 levels of extra power. Azura creates the lab text for her WC this spring, Ra'am can study it in the summer, we're at 40. Two others learn the 20 WC in spring and summer adding 10 more each to the total. Right now it appears that Cygna and Viscaria can learn the WC spell now, both have LTs of 22. Amos is close with 18. Heims doesn't like Muto Vim, so he's down at 13.

It's a bit risky, even with a mastered spell. And she can use up to 8 pawns of Vim, since that's her Art score. She'd be able to add +10 to her casting score (2*5 pawns in excess of what she actually needs for the ritual). And, well, we actually don't have any Vim, vis, do we? :wink:

Flaky, in many ways can be just as difficult to play as dishonest. It can be fun to play and tell stories around either kind of character. However, as much fun as it can be it can also be equally not fun when PCs have to teach the character a lesson. Again, I don't object to this character, at all, but eventually something will happen and be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back for the other PCs. And I stand by my contention that Arya needs to be extremely communicative about her character's actions and motivations so our players can respond accordingly.

148

Yeah, I prefer going the WC route myself:

  • More effective
  • More fun and mythic

I'm all for saying that our WC has Sun Duration. It's logical :smiley:

BTW, a good new: Aura is counted when learning a spell, so Cygna, Viscaria and Amos add 5 to theior totals: They can learn the lvl 20 WC from the text :smiley:
OTOH, for the record, you made an error for Hiems (and also Cygna and Amos): By the rules, inventing a spell (Doing it from scratch on your own) is a different specialty that Learning a spell (from a text or teacher), so hiems total is one point lower.

But yeah, once summer is past, we'll be able to use Wizard's Communion to cast Azura's Aegis with full penetration :smiley:

Yup, I didn't understood she looked as a teenager, I thought she was in her twenties. That would have led to slightly different proportions on her picture.
In character, you're also right in that, for all you know, she might be 20 years older (or with an appropriate focus) and thus perfectly capable of casting it on her own

But yes, the low penetration for the warding effect is an issue, one that, with a little cooperation can be resolved in various manners if the characters discuss it.
Which, IMO, they should reasonnably, as such issues (a magus able to cast a lvl xx aegis but lacking penetration on his own, and thus needing Wizard's Communion) must occur rather frequently: Azura has no need to hide it, nor do the other magi have any reason to feel cheated or lied to. In fact, one of the first questions Ra'am would ask Azura is something like "Can you make full use of your Aegis ritual, or do you need us to join you in Wizard's Communion?"

Oooooh yes.

And as it may prove an issue, with characters reacting harshly, we need to make things clear to avoid any misunderstanding: If Azura rips Hiems, he won't be happy, but, if I knew enough to enjoy it, I may be :laughing:

149

Here are the Muvi lab totals I have for the characters in question. I did add the aura. I also added a +1 for the magic theory inventing spells. I added the +1 for inventing, because reading through Chapter 8 I came across this: Arm5 describes the process of being taught or learning a spell from a lab text as inventing a spell. Arm5 MRB, pg 95: "Even when you learn a spell from a teacher, it is your Wizar'ds Sigil that manifests in your version, you actually invent the spell yourself, but with constant guidance from the teacher." Obviously, this requires some discussion about what inventing a spell means in the context of magic theory. Do we as a troupe want it to mean a brand new never created effect? Players may want to change their MT specialties, as well, if that's the case. And we had some discussion about learning spells during character creation, whether or not the specialty is applicable, it may be now, or we could just handwave the creation part away and accept it from this point forward. Either way, it adds 1 extra point to the LT and can be easily eliminated.

Edit: For some reason MetaCreator is adding a +3 bonus for having the lab text[1]. I had initially included it, but can't find a basis for allowing the bonus, at least on Ra'am, others might have the Book Learner virtue, and I think it's reasonable it would apply there. It would appear that Ra'am cannot learn WC 30 right now, unless he involves Claudia. Ra'am's MuVi lab total is low enough that Azura can't even teach it to him directly.

[table][tr][td]Character[/td][td]Te (Muto)[/td][td]Fo (Vim)[/td][td]Int[/td][td]MT[/td][td]Aura[/td][td]Text Bonus[/td][td]LT[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Amos[/td] [td]3[/td][td]5[/td][td]1[/td][td]4[/td][td]5[/td][td]0[/td][td]18[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Cygna[/td][td]6[/td][td]3[/td][td]4[/td][td]4[/td][td]5[/td][td]0[/td][td]22[/td]1[/tr]
[tr][td]Heims[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td]2[/td][td]4[/td][td]5[/td][td]0[/td][td]13[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Viscara[/td][td]5[/td][td]4[/td][td]3[/td][td]5[/td][td]5[/td][td]0[/td][td]22[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Ra'am[/td][td]5[/td][td]5[/td][td]3[/td][td]8+2[/td][td]5[/td][td]0[/td][td]28[/td][/tr][/table]

The casting totals for the WC spell appear to be irrelevant. The text indicates that only one roll is necessary, for the actual ritual being worked. However, I think it's reasonable and "mythic" that if one's casting total doesn't approach the level of the WC cast, the character should have fatigue. Furthermore, it should be long term fatigue and a stress die roll should be made against the Ritual Magic table by each character, except the leader, involved in the WC to determine whether and/or how much fatigue they lose. A bothced WC roll could indicate that the player passes out, they've given all they had and faint away. It's consistent with the Mercurian nature of the ritual. So, because the ease of the spell is reduced so much for Azura, she's as fresh as a daisy and doesn't understand why the rest of us are so wiped. Consider she is cating the equivalent of a 6th level spell (30th level spell, 5 participants via WC 30/5=6).

Edit:
[1] Found it. I had been playing around with lab files for Ra'am. One of the items I have for Ra'am with his BPs that he brought with is a Bookstand of Hespera. That would get him to +2, and adding an early riser routine will get him another +1, 28+2+1=31 so it is doable, just barely if Azura transcribes her lab text, or gives Ra'am access to it and allows him to transcribe it. If he transcribe's Azura's text, then he knows her symbology and can transcribe any of her texts as his own. She may not want that to happen and would prefer transcribing her own texts to be used by others.
!

150

To be clear-- the inconstance and almost capriciousness of Azura's personality is largely intended to be a nod to her Mutantes heritage. Her Rego focus is to show how her own interests differ from her nature. (A theme relevant to me, as my natural strengths are in maths, but I chose to pursue biology instead.)

151

Full disclosure-- she likes to drink and gamble, and is rather promiscuous as well. (I love the Goliards!)

152

These are cool. She and Étienne will get along famously, I'm sure. :wink: As soon as Ra'am relaxes his leash a bit, anyway.

153

:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Drink and Gamble...
arm5phoenix.wetpaint.com/page/Gerard
Too bad the gift's effects are there :frowning:

Well, although I agree that, when learning a spell, you create your own version of it, I base myself on the distinction on p95, with a paragraph for "learning spells", and another for "inventing spells", which begins with "Inventing a spell is more difficult than learning one", which adds to the mechanical differences between the 2.

Anyway, this is absolutely unimportant, so long as we all agree to use the same rules. We could use a coin toss, for all I care :wink:
But if it should make difficulties for established characters, it's better to just assume the 2 are the same.

Blasted serf's parma!!
I keep forgetting Wizard's Communion is Muto Vim, despite it being pretty obvious.

Yup, it isn't very clear.

How I've always interpreted it, trying to stay as close to the RAW as possible:

  • The one roll bit means that only the "leader" has to roll for the spell cast (here, the Aegis), not every character. This seems logical
  • But every character has to cast Wizard's Communion successfully, although, since they can do it in advance and quietly, this can be done with a "normal" die. This can result in fatigue loss, which is irrelevant for all save the primary caster.
  • Since the ritual precludes rest, any fatigue lost isn't restored while it is being cast (which is, again, usually irrelevant).

Much more generous than you, I'll admit :laughing:

154

My experience with "having a good time" is that you don't have to even like each other... :wink:
It helps, but there can also be other over-riding considerations...

It's ambiguous enough to cause difficulty, and should be ruled on by SG and/or troupe and characters should be allowed to change their MT specialty if necessary. If it is inventing brand new spells from scratch, it's a very weak specialty. If inventing spells learning from lab texts AND designing new effects it's consistent in power to enchanting as a specialty for MT.

Well, it seems fitting that there is a cost to these vast magics that get worked. I'm good either way. If we do roll for success, and Ra'am is having some bad luck, rolling 1's on the non-stress die, it might not be pretty. His casting score in the Phoenix aura is 18 for the WC 30.

155

First time on in about two weeks - I'm sorry I have to do this after the previous discussion - I've just proven myself to be "flaky". I was/am not able to keep up with the Wednesday and weekend schedule. I really love the character of Amos (and will probably try to use him again some time in the future) but I don't seem to have the time to do him or the multiple storylines justice.

I'm hoping to leave him and his custos/covenfolk around as NPCes so I can 'one day come back" - but as I mentioned in a PM to Amul everyone always say that and no one ever actually returns. Which is sad. But still hopeful! It's either that or we'll work out some kind of departure. I really don't want him to suddenly disappear.

And after reading thru the thread I see Amul hasn't had internet access.

156

Well, I'm sorry to see you go. And I hope that you turn out to be "the exception that proves the rule" and are able to come back sooner rather than later.

157

:frowning:

This comes as no real surprise, but still, this is sad.
I hope things will sort out for you, and that you'll be able to come back.

158

I PM'd him. Maybe we can find stories that go at a slower pace for him, and extricate Amos from the committments he's made?

159

Yup, that'd be great.
All we need is a thread for amos + grogs/companions.

160

I have caught up on the game, and believe I have answered all pending questions. Several storylines seem to have stalled without my prodding, but I am uncertain why (it was a long read!).

So, if you have a lingering question that I haven't answered, point me to it.

If I have not prodded a story thread, tell me what you are waiting for, explicitly. I think some threads are waiting on the Lab Scouting thread. With Amos gone NPC on us, we need more players in that thread. Magi, grogs, servants, whatever.

Wasn't there going to be a dungeon crawl under Hiems Tower?

Did somebody say something about boobytrapping the labs? :smiling_imp: