2.5 - Council Meeting, Friday, March 15, 1213AD

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Phoenix - Rise from the A
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Looking at Cygna he says, "Agreed. I don't think it's equal, either."

Turning his gaze to Azura, "No, she should know better, I'm negotiating. We each" indicating everyone at the table except Jamie and Azura, "gave up something of value to join the council. It is reasonable to expect anyone who joins the council to give up something of value. She low balled us, offering us no concessions and something that is easily within our own power of attaining, and I countered with an insulting amount to get her attention."

Turning to the council and away from Azura, "To put it in perspective, did you know we have an 8th magnitude Aegis lab text, and a 4th magnitude Wizard's Communion lab text? Truth be told, I estimate we could cast that 8th magnitude Aegis in a year with a bit of cooperative work. Makes the offer a 6th magnitude Aegis seem kind of small? And if we wanted an interim Aegis, I could manage a 4th magnitude in a season, and we could cast it in the Summer, provided we have the vis."

"So now that we each have a better idea of what assets each party has, shall we continue?"

62

(Folk Ken of 4+2Per+2Folk Ken+1 men=9; I assume this is sufficient for Azura to perceive that Ra'am never gets out of the lab and has no idea how unreasonable his "suggestion" was, and probably doesn't even realize how close he came to making a formidable enemy.)

Azura laughs derisively. "Had you so flagrantly insulted anyone else in my House so grossly, you would have just ensured that good magus Jaime had no opportunity to use any of your sigils, at the next Tribunal, or any other. But then, if you were aware of your own blunder, you would not have been so quick to dismiss the benefits of association with my House.

"It is clear you know how difficult it is to cast a sixth magnitude Aegis at double the required casting strength. That means you also know there's only a handful of magi in the Order who can do so. In case my youthful appearance has confused you, let me be the first to infirm you that the youngest of said magi is about a decade my senior, and highly specialized.

"I would expect anyone with such an ostentatiously named parens to be aware how House Mercere works. Anyone with the political savvy Trianoma had in her little toe is fully aware that a Gifted Mercere covenant member is worth far more votes in Tribunal than the personal one we never cast. Ser Lannister certainly knows it, if half what I've heard of his prowess in the political arena is true." Azura pauses a moment to smile his way-- and despite that she's in full-on Bargain mode, the smile is genuine, as no amount of rumour milling could have prepared her for the full effect of those golden curls, piercing green eyes, or the Adonis-like musculature. :wink:

She turns back to Ra'am and the smile vanishes. "I assure you that my House's losses here in Iberia were no less than anyone else's. The House does not have the vis to spare, and I would not pay it out of my own pocket, even if I were so rich as to be able to afford such extravagance.

"Know that there are any number of covenants in this Tribunal who would jump at the opportunity I've presented you. All of them, to be precise. I want to establish roots here because..." She pauses, looking for the right words, and when looks up at Amos, she smiles, as she has found them. "--Because this is the one place in Ib- in the WORLD where Jews, Muslims, Romans, and Eastern Orthodox, all live together in peace and harmony. This is the one place I can live in Iberia where grogs won't quietly whisper among themselves as to whether or not they can murder a heathen maga with impunity. Where a praeco would reschedule council meetings to accommodate Shabbat. Where I can sit down at a communal meal without being told how much more delicious my food would be if only it had a little bacon in it. Where I do not have to fear the prospect of bringing children into the world for the danger of being who and what we are. In short, dod, I want to establish roots here for exactly the same reasons that brought you here.

"So let me re-iterate my proposal to the council. I will establish a Mercer House here, which will enjoy the protection of Phoenix's mundane and magical forces. I will gladly cast a mastered Aegis of sixth magnitude, and if more penetration than the two magnitudes I currently provide are desired, I will happily trade favours with another Mercurian to do so, and dedicate half of every year to improving my Rego, Vim, and Penetration. This vis cost will not come from my own pocket, but neither will I charge for my services as I would were this purely a business arrangement. In exchange for a seat on the council, in lieu of my sigil, I would happily spend my social capital to bend the Tribunal's votes however Ser Jaime sees fit, at this Tribunal and all others to come. I will see to it that Phoenix's political rivals receive notification of the next Tribunal at the last possible moment... and it might even end up that Redcaps dispatched to such duty might be unavoidably detained en route, through no fault of their own. YOU-" she points at Ra'am- "-Will NEVER again insult me nor impugn the integrity of my given word, nor insult my House, andin exchange for that I will hold this council and covenant blameless for your personal ignorance, political incompetence, and complete social ineptitude."

(Bargain is 8+4 Com+2 skill, specialty is Gentiles; so her Bargain is only 14 to Ra'am but 15 for everyone else... which seems appropriate :p)

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Azura then shrugs. "Alternately, I could just surrender my sigil to Ser Jaime on the understanding that he will not vote with it directly, instead keeping it in good faith against my efforts to shift all votes in his favour. I am worth vastly more politically (without alienating my House) than the use of any one vote."

64

Com 1 + Bargain 0 + die roll of 0 - uh oh. Luckily, not a botch. So, a total of 1, vs. Azura's 15. Yeah.

The longer Azura talks, the more impressed Cygna looks. She looks slightly bothered by the last bit, but it passes quickly. She looks around at the rest of the council.

[color=red]"I see no reason not to accept Maga Azura ex Mercere's application for membership, based on what she has offered to do for the covenant. Anyone else?"

(edited to add Cygna's pathetic attempt at a Bargain roll)

65

"Cygna, with all due respect, she's not giving up anything to get on the council seat. Is your sigil not valuable to you? Shouldn't she give up something to be on the council? I agree, I see the value in having a Mercere House, but do you not see that when Azura doesn't get her way, she will constantly bash us with the threats of having House Mercere behind her?"

Edit: OOC: don't quote this, I may delete this if there's some editing of the thread that happens.

66

Hiems

Once again, I find wisdom in lady cygna's words. This is not acceptable.
Yet I understand Ra'am's point of view, and he raises very valid points, although I'd like to examine his claims in detail: Everyone can make mistakes.

Azura, could you expand your offer? Maybe provide the vis for one casting of the aegis?
You claimed you'd bring us the goodwill of the mercere. This sounds good, but appearances can be deceiving, especially in a wartorn tribunal. What did you mean exactly?

(Azura's answer is below=>)

Hum...

I find the fact that you imply you'd charge us otherwise for casting the aegis insulting: In my opinion, it is, normally, a covenant duty to cast it. Just as it is, normally, a covenant's duty to provide vis for the casting.
So I won't take that as an argument.
Nor do I appreciate you threatening to throw the entire weight of House Mercere against us, or even one of us. The mercere are powerful, sure, but so are each house, and I'm not sure your sodales would help you if trying to bully us without reason, especially if we each called upon our own houses to aid us. If you have a problem with Ra'am, certamen for it, and be done with it.

Luckily, your other proposals do have weight to them, and answer my question. Unless someones gives me good arguments to the contrary, I deem myself satisfied.

(in truth, hiems tends to be somewhat swayed by Ra'am's logic, but this entire conflict and discussion proves more and more penible to him.)

67

"Agreed. I would prefer to belong to the covenant as an equal and valued member, than have to buy a membership and negotiate payment for anything I contribute, as Ra'am has suggested."

68

"I just bought my way onto the council, with my voting sigil. You contend that Mercere interests are Phoenix interests, and vice versa. I can't say I wouldn't like the arrangement, but you have to prove it for me to reconsider your offer. I see no sacrifice on your part, where we have all given up our sigils. You say your sigil is too important for you to give up, which insults us by saying ours aren't just as important. Mercere have voted, it is rare, but it has happened. Again, bargain with us for a seat on the council. Find something of value that you can give up. Establishing a Mercere House, in my opinion is not sufficient, for the very reason you state, we are responsible for defending your House should the Crusaders come knocking. Where are we just how likely do you think that possibility is?"

69

"My sigil is, if anything, less important than yours. I cannot use it to vote without most of the members of my House seeing it as a slight-- the implication that the Gift is what makes a magus of the Order. Redcaps have sigils but do not vote out of respect to the Gifted magi of the Order, and Gifted Mercere do not vote out of respect for the Redcaps, who work far harder than any Gifted magi ever have, myself included, and I worked in a shipyard for a year." Azura's face screws up with frustration. Carefully, in Hebrew, she asks, "You seem so paranoid... Is there something you are not telling me?"

70

She pauses a moment to let Ra'am think about his response, then turns back to the rest of the council. "I also have a few high quality summae-- a copy of Ars Mutantis, by Triceres himself..." she is startled to see a lack of recognition on folks' faces at that name, so she explains, "The third son of Mercere the Founder, who is the father of the Mutantes lineage from whence I hail. Anyway, my other summae are on Animal and Vim. I would be happy to donate these texts to the covenant library as a token of my intentions and loyalty to the covenant."

71

Ra'am responds in Latin, "I'm happy to share my concerns. Jamie is offering something and we are paying a price. The risk is that his goals won't perfectly align with our goals. No offense, Archmagus Lannister, but we are all placing a lot of trust in you, and of course the benefit is that we gain full council privileges." Ra'am looks long and directly at Azura indicating he has more to say if she's interested, but it won't be here.

"I think it's important that we, who are on the council with full privileges, have given the same or similar resources, share the same risk and therefore have equal responsibility to each other. I don't see your sigil as less valuable to you, as you using it, or even having it be used, would diminish your status within your House. I can understand the drive for House acclaim as I'm sure can Viscaria, what with the competitions that the Verditius conduct. So, I do see your sigil as being, in some ways, more valuable to you. But, by and large, it is an equal payment, for the same right, if that makes sense. That is why I have bargained roughly, if ham-handedly, with you. The other issues of the Mercere House and the Aegis have separate risk and reward scenarios we need to discuss in depth and then vote. If you give Jamie your sigil, even with the stipulation that he's willing to accept: to not vote with it, then I vote yes for admitting you to the council."

Fast-forwarding a bit, after Azura's memebership has been ratified, Ra'am calls for Sharae to enter the council chambers, with a copy of the charter for both to sign and then to discuss an item he discovered when reading it while he'd been stuck in the library. "There is a matter of language of this charter that we must see to before conducting any further business. It is my understanding that this covenant had familial relationships, and a close family friend, and that is perhaps the reason that all decisions of the council required a unanimous approval. I think building consensus is important, and it should be our goal to achieve concurrence of all the members on actions we take. But, we are a much more diverse group, and as the previous issue illustrates, coming to agreement may be quite difficult. Do we wish to continue requiring a unanimous vote for covenant actions?" Ra'am indicates the clause in charter below. Note text in red has been scratched out.

All issues shall be passed by a majority vote (emphasis added) unanimous vote of the members there present; excepting that the unanimous opinion of the Council of Members is required for issues involving changes to the charter; expulsion of a member; and acceptance of a new probationary member. This is taken from the Covenant Charter on the wiki, fourth paragraph of the Governance section.

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(OOC: I left this out of the previous post.)
"I, of course, am talking about general issues. Items which follow in the second sentence should continue to require unanimous votes to succeed. I might be inclined to add language the the last sentence that promotion from probationary to full council status requires a unanimous vote, too."

73

Relieved that the issue of Azura's membership is at long last sorted out, Hiems ponders Ra'am's suggestion.
It seems to him that the magi already agree a lot, but that was before the coming of Ra'am and Azura, who have proven themselves to be quite alien and difficult to understand. As much as he's loathe to think about it, conflicts such as the one that arose may surge again, and may paralyze the council.

So, in a calm voice
Agreed on both points

74

After a few moments have gone by, seeing that no one answers...

Is there a problem with Ra'am proposition? Do you wish to consider it at a further time?

I also propose that we hold future councils on Mondays. This should satisfy everyone.

Now, we need to decide what to do next, hermetically speaking. We already agreed to send a diplomatic party towards these... templars, although Azura and Ra'am presence could change things. We should also review our needs and our ressources. Even if Iberian trade is mostly barred to us, maybe we can trade with our former covenants.

Are there covenant projects people want to bring up? It seems to me that, maybe, we could make an addition to the charter in order to rule covenant ressources. How much are we entitled to? What it we want more, or to trade? What if two of us wish to study the same book at the same time? We could benefit from a simple system of favors, tracking who owes the more or the less to the covenant, in order to settle such matters.

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[color=red]"I have no problem with amending the charter so that, save for the specific exceptions mentioned, all matters be resolved by a majority vote."

76

"My only concern would be what would be done in the event of a tie. Should there be a tiebreaker vote? Perhaps we should elect a princeps who would structure council meetings and whose vote would break any ties. Ser Lannister seems the obvious choice for the present."

77

"Actually, the charter requires that we nominate a disceptator,who has a discretionary vote to break ties. Given the newness of everyone here to Phoenix and the language of the charter, that responsibility does fall to Archmagus Lannister." Ra'am says concurring with Azura.

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So, that matter is solved, says Hiems quietly.
What of the rest? We really should consider our ressources, especially for the Aegis. Can we afford to cast it "for free" each year, or do we need to extract vis from the aura?

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[color=red]"I believe Amos was going to review the library and the resources to see what we have available and what our income looked like." (ooc - unless chicoazian wants to kick it back to whomever due to lack of time) [color=red]"Maybe he could present his findings at the next meeting?"

[color=red]"Also...I know we've discussed laboratories and sancta before. If there are no objections, I would like to claim Cersei's old sanctum. She and I appear to have some common interests, and it would be easier, I think, to reconstruct some of her research there than if I were to have to build a laboratory from scratch."

80

"Actually Cygna, if I may, I took the liberty of discovering the vis sources while I was trapped over here and spent the night in the library. I know Amos has been having some cold or allergy problems, so I discovered quite a bit. There is also the matter of the debt we owe to the dwarves to be discussed."
(OOC: I picked this up because I was there and amos had been away, I took that cue from you, Peregrine, in the 2.4 labs thread.)

"Ra'am squints at some notes he took on a wax tablet. According to my calculations, we have aproximately 26[1] pawns of vis available on an annual basis. The spring sources of vis include 3 pawns of Creo vis at an abandoned quarry 30 miles to the east of the covenant. It appears that it is contained within the egg sacs of giant spiders which infest the quarry. It's probably difficult to get. Salamandrus," Ra'am interrupts himself and looks at Jamie and with a pained look on his face continues along another line of thought for a moment, "apologies, Archmagus Lannister, we mean you no disrespect, but you might want to excuse yourself as we discuss your former sodales. We do not mean to diminish your losses in the least, and I'm sure it pains you to hear them discussed in such a business like tone." After Jamie responds, Ra'am continues, "Salamandrus discovered a vis source having to do with ants in a village 15 miles northeast of here. A pawn of Rego vis is collected somehow. There is one source we may be too late in collecting, especially if it was an early spring thaw. Aquam vis collects in flotsam where the river narrows a few miles down stream. We can discuss vis collected in other seasons now, if you'd like, or table the discussion for the next meeting. There are other mysteries, such as one source which indicates corpus vis, but not how much, and another source of Vim vis acquired in the fall sometime, but no idea as to where it comes from. Other vis sources have sketch notes which leaves me confident we can figure out how to collect it. Those two are the least documented, but we have some time before they're ripe.[2] "

[OOC:
[1] 26 pawns of vis=31 total from the wiki - 5 corpus not documented (in grey).]
[2] Unlesss they're ripe and available, considering that they have been uncollected since July 1212 when the battle took place]